Thursday, October 20, 2005

Only Liberals Need Apply

Here is another USA Today article looking at the disturbing trend of fewer men attending college--especially liberal arts colleges (gee, there's a surprise). It is easy to see why boys avoid these types of feminine empires--to succeed, one has to adopt a liberal point of view:

UCLA higher education professor Linda Sax says such a discussion should address what effect, if any, the gender composition of a college has on men and women. To find out, she examined data from more than 17,000 students at 204 four-year colleges.

Preliminary results show that on campuses that were predominantly female, both men and women got higher grades. Predominantly female campuses also led to a "significant increase" in men's commitment to promoting racial understanding and led males to more liberal views on abortion, homosexuality and other social issues, her research found.

"What we're talking about here is the impact of women's attitudes and values," Sax says.


As if all that matters is the impact of certain women's attitudes and values. What happened to diversity for the rest of us? We women who hold more libertarian points of view or men who are conservative? Where do we apply?

52 Comments:

Blogger Thom said...

"Predominantly female campuses also led to a "significant increase" in men's commitment to promoting racial understanding and led males to more liberal views on abortion, homosexuality and other social issues, her research found."

I wonder how she measured "commitment." If you hold with the standard college male stereotype, I suspect that "commitment" lasts just long enough to get the female college student into bed.

Or, to be slightly less cynical, does the commitment last long beyond graduation? Or are the men doing what they need to do to fit in, get the grade, get the diploma, and move on?

10:36 AM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger SumoRunner said...

I fail to see why this issue continues to be cast in a negative light. As a former machinist, now a high falutin master of science, I know that a very good living can be made through blue collar trades. As good, perhaps, as my MS provides in many cases. Why should all young males be in college when they can do just fine without it?

The real question no one wants to pose is, why are so many women there and not in the workforce at an earlier age when the typical liberal arts curriculum qualifies them for nothing in particular in the labor force?

It did not require a BA to be an AA back in the day.

11:14 AM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You just pony up the cash.

11:21 AM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger QuantumNut said...

I agree with SumoRunner. It makes no sense to get a bachelor in liberal arts or one of the many other worthless degrees. Young women are just wasting their parents money.

Also, “Preliminary results show that on campuses that were predominantly female, both men and women got higher grades,” sounds like they are trying to make the case that men should go to colleges with mostly women. The claim is bogus, though. Could it be that predominantly female schools are ones where they don't “believe in grades,” and thus give everyone high marks. Comparing grades between schools is comparing apples and oranges.

11:31 AM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Sissy Willis said...

Higher grades, huh? Can you say grade inflation?

11:57 AM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Dave Schuler said...

We women who hold more libertarian points of view or men who are conservative? Where do we apply?

Well, presumably you're gender traitors and, as in any religion, apostates are worse than infidels.

12:16 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sumorunner and Quantumnut, you are making some mighty big assumptions about the purpose of higher education. Surely it's more than mere job preparation. As an English-major graduate of a small, private liberal arts college, I'd say that a liberal arts education provides a foundation for ANY career.

12:17 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Maddad said...

I had a big long comment to post here, thought better of it, here's an anecdote from a guy who grduated with a Liberal Arts degree.

I was graded an "incomplete" on an oral presentation in an "Interpersonal Communication" class because the content of my speech, "How to replace the timing chain on an '81 Bonneville", did not appeal to the women in the class.

I ended up re-doing the presentation on a female freindly topic suggested by my professor, "How to fix a flat tire".

I thought that was pretty condescending.

To the women, that is.

12:51 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Teresa said...

Sounds like being a higher education professor involves little in the way of critical thinking skills... not a surprise.

There is certainly nothing wrong with working in the trades. We need highly skilled people in these positions. A college education - OTOH - is supposed to teach people how to think and reason.

Perhaps that is the main roadblock here as demonstrated so ably by Ms. Sax. When intuitiveness is substituted for critical thinking - many men (and many libertarian thinking women) give up in despair. Unless you can figure out what it is your professor wants to hear - as opposed to what the facts are - it's too difficult to try and navigate through the liberal arts.

12:54 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Jim said...

"Surely it's more than mere job preparation."

Perhaps so, if one's career plans are contract prostitution, to be supported by some breadwinner. There's huge gender bias in that market though.

1:04 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Matt Edens said...

>Where do we apply?

Community college, it seems.

1:24 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger who, me? said...

If you look at culture in some breadth, including male initiation rituals, it is certainly possible to conclude that the formation of a productive male is both a demanding and necessary enterprise. Sumorunner is right that it doesn't depend on a college education. But in this culture I imagine that problems with admission, perseverance, success, etc. at college are negative markers of male progress into whatever the culture calls adulthood. It may also be a marker of the increasingly-perceived expensive counter-utility of submitting oneself or one's children to degraded educational institutions, especially males for whom there is a good blue-collar job option.

1:30 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Men are generally self conscious about their huge clitoris. They think they are subordinate to women for being overgrown, they feel ackward, out of place.

So men go into engineering field, field where big tall things abound so their overgrown thing won't be noticed as much. It is kind of scary havign that thing hang out there so vulnerable.

Put them in liberals art school, the gals calm them down, make them feel less threatened, less vulnerable. They lose their masturbation anxiety, start acting human.

1:38 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The issue is not limited to "liberal arts" degrees, at least not up here in the great white north (Canada). Women out number men in medical schools and we are feeling the results.

A significant proportion of women physicians work only part-time (certainly not the 50-60 hours per week common in their male counterparts). It's the elephant in the room that everyone ignores up here when talking about the causes of our physician shortage.

2:10 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger reader_iam said...

Dave Schuler: Dead on!

Maddad: Indeed! But how did you get that far not knowing that it's your job, as an enlighted male, to pander to the intellectually spoiled? What an appalling anecdote.

The value of a liberal arts education, as such, as an old, ongoing, and long-term debate. I can see both sides.

But I'd be hard put to do anything BUT encourage my young son to go to college some day. He may have a VERY long life ahead of him and, since it's unlikely that he's a clairvoyant, won't be able to predict if not having a degree will later turn out to be a tragic roadblock. And it really is harder to go back later, for most people--and less efficient in the sense that the few people, later in adulthood, can just stop out for a few years to get the degree over with. I myself wish I had not opted to forgo a graduate (post college) degree in my '20s, since, as it turns out with what I do, that credentialing might have made a real difference in terms of opportunity and pay. It would have been relatively easy back then (either full or part time); 20-25 years later, it's much more complicated and challenging.

But that's me.

That's NOT to say that everyone should get, or should have to get, a degree. But if there's ability and interest, I'd err on the side of getting that "piece of paper," and doing so early.

It's going to be more of a challenge, though, I fear, to find a good fit for the boys. It's terrible that it should come down ideology--oppressive, really.

3:22 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Jeff said...

Here comes the matriarchy.

3:56 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger SumoRunner said...

See what happens when InstaPundit links to you Helen?

4:08 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

Perhaps the greatest long term effect of the transformation of liberal arts colleges and universities from male bastions -- as they almost unabashedly were prior to 1960 -- into female bastions -- as they are now becoming, comes less at the university level or in men's short term attitudes, but as women tend to dominate the professional schools (law, medicine, business) and to become more and more important in the business world.

A phenomenon I noticed in law school almost 30 years ago, and which I have read about many times since, is that women think and make decisions differently than men. Women -- and I speak of generalities, not any specific individual -- tend to be more risk averse and to seek consensus more in decision-making than do men.

Why this is I have no idea. Could be something biological in a nesting instinct and desire to provide safety for children, could be the result of conditioning in society. I don't much care why. I've just observed the fact over the years.

Most real risk-takers, and those most willing to go out on a limb for an idea, are men. I suspect that is the reason that even today, most scientists, inventors, and entrepreneurs are men. Women have tended to choose safe professions, where verbal skills are most important, such as law, teach, and the sales side of investment banking.

5:19 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

To catorenasci:

I remember reading recently that male and female teachers tend to have different teaching styles--the men tending to teach more about taking risks and the women to be risk adverse. Of course, this is just a generalization, but even if partly true, means that kids may not be exposed as often to what it is to take a risk in a profession. I wonder how this will play out in our next generation of workers?

6:04 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger Ben said...

Where can you apply?

Grove City College!

Patrick Henry College!

Hillsdale College!

That's three off the top of my head.

10:06 PM, October 20, 2005  
Blogger CatoRenasci said...

I think you can already see it playing out in the changes in who is in college and graduate school: as the schools are increasingly feminized, risk-averse behavior is increasingly rewarded and risk-taking behavior discouraged. It's a world that is becoming bureacratized: to get into a good college you have to have all your tickets punched: grades, scores, sports, political/culturally correct activities. Lack any one of these and forget the ivies or the top liberal arts colleges. The sciences remain strong because the schools concentrating on them on the undergraudate level are more concerned about scientific aptitude than about sports and other activities, so the single-minded brilliant geek can still get in and excel. (I say this as a non-science type whose closes thing was a brush with engineering as a freshman in the 1960s and and graduate work in mathematical economics)

If you think about it, there has been very little innovation in nontechnical areas -- other than the application of technology -- in the past 30 years.

10:46 PM, October 20, 2005  
Anonymous PFC M.S.G said...

I skipped college and went into the army. I knew that if I had went to a university right away, I'd spend most of my time partying and chasing girls. Too many distractions to get serious work done.

At first I regretted my decision; but now I am surrounded by many good male influences, I work on top of the line technical equipment, and feel damn good about myself. And I'm taking (online) classes without all the political bs. Once I get out I'll be close to a degree.

Not saying this is for everyone, but it was sure better than going to some whack-job university and being beaten over the head with femmi-nazi garbage.

2:31 AM, October 21, 2005  
Anonymous Locomotive Breath said...

The WAR AGAINST BOYS: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684849577/qid=1129885464/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-6366828-3181526?v=glance&s=books

This describes my son's experience to a "T". Last summer his reading list was "The Color Purple", "The Joy Luck Club", and "The Power of One". The summer before it was "The Last Girls". The administrator as his school seem to not understand or be bother by the fact that of the 24 kids on the honor roll only 4 are boys.

5:10 AM, October 21, 2005  
Blogger Reginleif said...

The recent issue of Ms. notes what the article fails to point out: "There has been no decline in bachelor's degrees awarded to men; the numbers awarded to women have simply increased."

Ms. also notes that there never seemed to be much concern when men were receiving a majority of college degrees.

11:03 AM, October 21, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

To reginleif,

Yes, Ms. magazine would point out that there was not much concern when men were receiving a majority of college degrees. That is their purpose. What they are saying is essentially, as long as women get what they want, the world is ok and screw everybody else. This is their view of equality--revenge against men rather than equalizing the playing field to include both genders. What you are doing now is playing a game of war and you might just have to be prepared to lose. Isn't it better to try for true equality between the sexes?

11:20 AM, October 21, 2005  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

"I agree with SumoRunner. It makes no sense to get a bachelor in liberal arts or one of the many other worthless degrees. Young women are just wasting their parents money."

Isn't that a bit sexist (I know, dirty word!) Are just young women wasting their parents money?

And no, you can't get an AA job nowdays without at least a undergrad degree.

8:54 PM, October 21, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i like that you point out the biases and ulterior motives of Ms. Magazine whilst portraying yourself as purely objective. it amuses me.

also that you admit to making a generalization, but seem blissfully unawares of the ill affects of your generalizations and that they don't aid in "equalizing the playing field to include both genders" nor do they promote "true equality between the sexes."

11:54 PM, October 21, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

To anonymous:

You are mistaken--I do not portray myself as objective--have you read my blog? I am totally biased--that's what a blog of one person is--totally biased, my opinion. If you prefer other opinions, go to another site.

10:23 AM, October 22, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

#1-- This may be a shocking assertion in these times, but the words "opinion" and "bias" are not necessarily synonomous. It is possible to form an opinion without bias. I had hoped, perhaps naively, that you would be capable of such.

#2-- If you admit that you are yourself "totally biased" then it seems to me rather hypocritical and misleading to make such remarks about Ms. Magazine. Pot calling the kettle black, etc...

#3--Go to another site? Well, this certainly seems to me a copout. I obviously don't mind the confrontation of differing opinions. Perhaps you do? It's public. You shouldn't stand on the streetcorner spewing invective unless you're prepared for the backlash. Hell, it occurs to me that someone might change my mind or I might change hers. Even though you have essentially made it clear that that is unlikely if not impossible, I wont simply piss off with my opinion.

12:49 PM, October 22, 2005  
Blogger Reginleif said...

Yes, Ms. magazine would point out that there was not much concern when men were receiving a majority of college degrees. That is their purpose. What they are saying is essentially, as long as women get what they want, the world is ok and screw everybody else.

What they're pointing out is that certain people only get their tighty whities in a wad when men are in the minority. But as long as the guys are running the show, it's OK with them. Kinda reminds me of when John Silber, formerly of Boston University, referred to some department or other there as "a damned matriarchy," simply because there were more than a token female or two there.

Incidentally, I'm hardly a political correctoid; I have a lot of differences with institutional feminism, especially over the tone of misandry that permeates much of it. Most of my close friends are male; I'm not particularly "girly," and I like being able to speak my mind with them. It is unfortunately true that many women prefer a bland, nonoffensive conformity that they call "consensus" over blunt, envelope-pushing debate.

But a lot of feminism's loudest critics aren't just "average Joes" (or libertarian Janes). They're cranks like Warren Farrell. Try Googling on his name along with the word "incest" and see what comes up, Helen.

4:29 PM, October 22, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think boys and girls learn differently to a some extent. Should we have single sex classrooms in k-12? Should we compensate k-12 teachers more in order to attract more males to the profession?

1:29 PM, October 24, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But a lot of feminism's loudest critics aren't just "average Joes" (or libertarian Janes). They're cranks like Warren Farrell. Try Googling on his name along with the word "incest" and see what comes up, Helen.

This is typical, disgusting feminist hate-mongering. Go ahead and do that. Then ask yourself, what's going on here? For a clue, see http://www.menweb.org/svofarre.htm Feminists hateful tactics are no longer working to silence men. See www.mensactivism.org and www.fathers-4-justice.org

8:29 AM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

To anonymous;

Thanks for the links to the men's groups and for speaking up.

11:16 AM, October 25, 2005  
Blogger pst314 said...

"cranks like Warren Farrell."

Funny how some people will label you a crank (or worse) for opposing hate and double-standards.

I remember reading very sensible comments from Warren Farrell at the same time that female chauvinists like Suzette Haden Elgin were getting applause for denigrating men.

11:54 AM, October 26, 2005  
Anonymous Adrianne Truett said...

There's always people like Mary Daly (Boston College) who say they will only teach female students; men interested in her courses can come in for private teaching. (Male professor says the reverse? Good luck with the lawsuits!) Of course, they really aren't that welcoming of females who don't buy in to the party line. See also, the NYTimes article lately with all the Ivy League professors saying, in effect, it's a waste of money and effort to educate girls if they're not going to go get a high-power business career with it (as was said in this comment thread as well)...

3:51 PM, October 26, 2005  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Regarding Farrell: He wrote an impeccably researched book intended to serve as a guide for women who want to make more money.

I rue my liberal arts degree some but I believe my biggest mistake was pouring my last year of school into my thesis when I should have been out hunting for work & internships.

I just don't have the aptitude for a Nat. Sci. degree. Many men and women don't.

As for that "Only Liberals Need Apply..." header, I don't suppose you could tell how you define liberals & conservatives.

I don't mean to be snarky. I really don't I'm just starting to believe that the words as we know them now hold very little meaning.

Conservatism & liberalism have spread to encompass too many incompatible ideas and ideolgies. They have no anchor, no objective correlative.

They're a lot like feminism in that way. ;)

1:45 PM, August 17, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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