Tuesday, August 01, 2006

Warning: Men Not Working

The New York Times had an interesting article yesterday on the large number of men who are no longer working (Hat tip: Instapundit):

Millions of men like Mr. Beggerow — men in the prime of their lives, between 30 and 55 — have dropped out of regular work. They are turning down jobs they think beneath them or are unable to find work for which they are qualified, even as an expanding economy offers opportunities to work.

About 13 percent of American men in this age group are not working, up from 5 percent in the late 1960’s. The difference represents 4 million men who would be working today if the employment rate had remained where it was in the 1950’s and 60’s.


The article gives a number of reasons for men's apathy about holding a job: increasing Social Security Disability payments, living alone with no household to support, being fresh out of prison, and a popular culture that shows guys like Cosmo Kramer as role models for the non-working life style. Perhaps men are using some of these reasons to stay unemployed, but admit it, who is having more fun--Cosmo Kramer or the dutiful dads and husbands who bought into the idea that a man had to make the money, help with the kids and housework, and not complain? Why should we be surprised that men are opting out of their masculine role as provider when "experts" and feminists have been trashing this role for years?

And now, finally, men are taking their advice to heart and are discovering themselves, relaxing, and giving up their masculine "roles" and people are concerned that they are jobless? Can we really have it both ways?

Take for example, the advice of Ronald Levant, the 2005 President of the American Psychological Association:

For the past several decades, men have had the experience of attempting to fulfill the requirements of the masculine mandate in the midst of criticism that has risen to a crescendo. Men feel that they are being told that what they have been trying to accomplish is irrelevant to the world of today. Since women now work and can earn their own living, there is no longer any need for The Good Provider. Furthermore, society no longer seems to value, or even recognize the traditional male way of demonstrating care, through taking care of his family and friends, by looking out for them, solving their problems, and being one who can be counted on to be there when needed. In its place, men are being asked to take on roles and show care in ways that violate the traditional male code and require skills that they do not have, such as revealing weakness, expressing their most intimate feelings, and nurturing children. The net result of this for many men is a loss of self-esteem and an unnerving sense of uncertainty about what it means to be a man.

Men are caught in a trap both because they do not have the incentives and because they are ill-equipped to address the loss of the good provider role in a collaborative and equitable fashion with the women in their lives, and as a result react with anger and defensiveness. They do not have the incentives to address the loss of the good provider role in collaboration with their wives because of the power, prerogatives, and entitlements that accrue to them in a patriarchal society. And they are not equipped to address it in this way because to do so would require a degree of comfort and fluency with emotions (particularly those emotions that make one feel vulnerable, such as sadness, fear, or shame) that is rare among men, due to the effects of the male gender role socialization process.


Now, instead of being angry and defensive, some men are taking Levant's advice and taking it easy. The NYT's article indicates that men who no longer work are able to sleep in until 11, read their favorite books, pursue their interests such as studying to be a pianist, and explore their lives in ways they never could have in the past. Perhaps this is good for their emotions. Society has been harping on men taking more care in their emotional lives for decades. Men have gotten the message. Why is anyone complaining?

151 Comments:

Blogger Rowena Hullfire said...

Yeah, guys like that always want to date me. I don't need to be supported financially, not having babies, but not looking to underwrite someone else's life of leisure. I can tell when a guy is looking at me like a meal ticket. Yuck. I guess we live in an age of equality, when guys can be gold diggers too.

8:20 PM, August 01, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I saw the NYT article too. I guess I'm so "programmed" to work that I couldn't not work and support myself if able. I performed a lot of "demeaning" jobs earning my way through college.

But I understand the guys, to a point at least. Reminds me somewhat of my mother. After the youngest child began school, she had the leisure time to attend college and eventually earn a M.S. degree. But she hasn't worked in a paying job since 1947 although she was recruited to teach at a small college.

rowena reflects the typical reaction to a man who seems to be seeking the same path that many women have for centuries.

9:00 PM, August 01, 2006  
Blogger gcruse said...

I found that following age fifty, I became unhireable. I finally pole-vaulted into early retirement.

Companies that practice age discrimination, ie, all of them, have a role to play in this.

9:26 PM, August 01, 2006  
Blogger Holly said...

Men have been selected by women to be The Good Provider for eons. It's not fair for us to expect them to make the transition away from that heavily socially and sexually rewarded role overnight. Men could take the opportunity to hone the other quality women have looked for in mates for eons: The Good Father. Guys who want to mooch off of The Good Provider ought to be The Good Parent in exchange, no matter whether its taking care of kids, pets, plants, or a partner. Everyone needs tender, loving care. Men can provide more than just 'the bacon,' some just need a little encouragement and coaching to find their tending instinct. I'd much rather see that than a generation of loafers who think they can idly sit on their Easy Street asses.

9:35 PM, August 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

High taxes, arrogant bosses, ridiculous costs to commute (gas, parking), churlish co-workers - the number of frustrations you leave behind when you don't work is huge.

When I was unemployed a few years ago, and my wife was supporting us, I was very happy. Completely relaxed all the time. It was great!

But I was still looking for work because my wife couldn't support us forever. We would have lost the house, eventually.

Now she's unemployed and not enjoying it at all. I wish she could relax the way I did, but it's not happening. Such is life.

9:39 PM, August 01, 2006  
Anonymous William Hamblen said...

Social Security Disability Insurance used to be very difficult to receive. The rule was that you had to be unable to perform any economically useful work, not just your normal occupation. I think that is still the case. I've known only a couple of people who did receive disability pensions and there was not any doubt that they were 100% disabled.

9:49 PM, August 01, 2006  
Anonymous Theophany said...

I wonder how many male heads would have rolled if anyone had had the audacity to claim that housewives just wanted to "mooch off the Good Provider." Particularly since the feminist party line was that housewives were actually doing more work. If men become the "Good Parent" and start "mooch[ing] off the Good Provider", can they now start claiming they're doing far more work?

10:51 PM, August 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

theophany:

Hear, hear!

1:09 AM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Indeed.
It's high time MEN got the easier, more rewarding side of things.

Working is stressful, unrewarding, and takes years off of your life. When you come home to a partner who has done about 3 or 4 hours of work when you've done 8 or 9, plus commuting, and to kids who run and cry to your partner for every need whim and desire, it's apparant that the worker is undervalued.
(Not my PERSONAL experiences, but others I know. I intend to make my life my own.)

1:35 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Scott said...

Dr. Helen:

That lucky guy your husband is on vacation this week so he can "pretend" he's mooching off the good Dr. Helen and report how he feels about.

Btw Dr. Helen -- what do think all those guys posting on your Blog Daylight hours are doing -- working ?

You ACT soooo surprised about this phenonema when the "average" up & coming guy works for the "Big Firm" on average of 5 years and has relatively Zero job hunting and "the marketing of Me" training, Yet the career wife won't respect him if he say becomes a used car salesman or a waiter while looking for work ... both of which I did in triplicate to pay the peanut butter and milk bill for Jr.s 1,2 & 3 in decades past.
(it was Mighty interesting to see the look on the Executive's face I just interviewed with when he brought his corporate party in and I was his waiter)

It is much more respectful to "Interview", "Work with the Head Hunter", "Narrowly focus", "Not Get Pigeonholed"

Meanwhile eating assets, and Playing alot of Golf, hunting and fly fishing.

Next life I'm screwing this silly corporate/suburban game, marrying the Hot waitress, going for Lot's a good bottom land with a good river on it and rolling hills, Horses, Hunting and Fishing; Thereafer the Lawyers, business owners and Corporate Exec.s will pay me $425 a day each to take them hunting. While their wives watch that second on the House get eaten with negative amoratization.

http://townsendoutdoors.com/
with Kevin Townsend -- Outdoor Genius

Your Pal,

Scott

2:54 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Scott said...

holly holly holly

What a rotten generation you must live in.

An interesting Psychological Phenomena has been occuring here in leafy suburbia; when the wife relaunches a carreer after on average 11 years off, because her "clock" has given her "Babies Rabies", and now Mr. "Provider" is "between jobs", All the SuperDad performance in the world doesn't make up for the feelings people are surprised they have when he does an excellent job as "Mr. Mom" and she as "Ms. Stud, the Provider".

He feels dissed and longs for a return to "Life with the Guys", the kids are a little confused by why "My Dad's at home" and "Mom's at work", OoooooH and the worst --- SHE GETS RESENTFUL Then LOOSES R-E-S-P-E-C-T, and treats the marriage and HIM accordingly.

Seen five of those situations go right down the toilet and in each of them, He went back to the job market eventually got a terrific job and of course a new woman that respected him, and the wife is coping some re-hitched some not, and to a woman regretting the decision to switch roles and screw up their marriages and screw up their kids.

Personally, I'll drive taxis, be a professional hunter, a corporate Executive, Small Business owner, Farmer, Waiter, or Salesman, tho I'd prefer small business owner farmer or Professional Hunter -- I'm paying the bills and taking the kids on fun as hell adventures every week and I can cook too but you're cleaning up after, If you don't like it, too bad, the kids like me, so honey we hope y'all will come along but if not we might not miss ya.

3:16 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Scott said...

Signing off now, It's past midnight here in California and I have a load of paperwork to do before checking into the office and seeing clients.

But looking forward to fall hunting & fly fishing season with a vengeance. Jr. #2, is back from NYC, just graduated from college, got his own pad and a great job.

Awww honey, too bad about the new patio furniture you wanted, I spent the money I made on a new deer rifle, duck hunting shotgun and high end fly rods for me and our two boys trips.

Yeah it's true, I'm a cold heartless killer ... who would stand in front of bullets for my family, (but not patio furniture or other suburban imortality symbols)

3:42 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

We live in a society wherein the man is at fault. Not only at fault for any specific thing, just at fault. At fault for everything. So, many men say "why bother?" and drop out. Many more will soon be dropping out. Get used to it. Let's face it readers: YOU allowed contempt for males ... Now you have to live with the consequences.

Mr. Levant, as quoted by Dr. Helen, uses the same "You're male, so you are at fault" reasoning as most other writers, speakers and thinkers ... You are a male and so you are at fault: You personally are faulty and responsible for eveything.

There's no way to fight such hate. So? Drop out. That is the way most men see it.

The truth is, there are ways to fight the contempt for all males which is our society. It is hard to fight hate, true! Very true ... Yet, it can be done.

I'm disabled ... my health is far too erratic for work. Somehow I manage to do the housework and the "men's" work, or at least most of it. Here's the thing, when a man does the househusband thing he also does all of the "men's" work too. That doesn't happen the other way around.

More importantly, in this society there are almost no people who do not see me as a useless sponge. The reverse does not apply "she's disabled, have care and conern for her!" You cannot hear "he's disabled, have care and concern for him!" That's not allowed in our society.

Look, Moslem cultures have real contempt for females: THAT is a major problem. Our western culture does not as of yet have that level of contempt for males, but bet everything you own and everything you will ever own that we are headed in that direction.

We may well find ourselves with two hate based cultures staring at each other over a dead and withered world. Is that what you want? it is what we are headed for ...

4:58 AM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous The Bruce said...

Isn't it interesting how even within the men's movement, single, poverty-stricken or consequently impoverished men of military age are assiduously scorned, divided into tribes vis-a-vis the grand old English trick of aiming the people who have practically nothing against the people who have nothing at all...and then discarded? Men of military age, often with military experience.

To paraphrase (and invert) one of my favorite poets:

Mommy, you whore, I'm through.

5:48 AM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is how I see it--the topic was modesty and this was my reply to Mrs. Athanasius
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mrs. Athanasius,

I find your analysis lackluster. This is not an ad hominem attack upon you-- for there are some points in your post wherein I agree. Yet, I would postulate that perhaps every American woman today is a 'latent feminist' whether they are aware of it or not. I know the speciousness of a 'universal statement' (hence my use of perhaps) but I believe when you listed the permutations of male relations in relation to the female, you yourself made a 'universal statement'. Surely it is illogical to assume that at all times and in all ages there was not a man, a husband, a father who did not fullfill his vocation as protector, defender and leader. As we all know, without sounding too elitist, the common man (collective noun) is often swayed by social circumstances or peer presure and most societal changes occur without much circumspection. I contend that this is a salient point in addition to the usurpation of vocation and the loss of gender-identity. Unfortunately, in the pluralist society the herd leads and erodes distinction--the very thing (difference) that gives direction and establishes foundation. Let American women never forget that despite their protests, the men in power conceeded the rights they now enjoy. The right to vote, the right to pursue public office etc. Yet, we are ingrained with the notion that the woman is the one who is truly altruistic or giving. It is the woman who bears our children---we depend upon her so very much and this point cannot be underestimated. Yet,it is she, the woman, who, if the truth be told, presently, has too much power and has too much control over humanity's destiny. The problem of modesty is symptomatic of the problem---what is the problem? I assert that it is the utter abandonment of the feminine vocation. So yes, Mrs Athanasius, the first move is open to the women and that movement should be in the direction of picking up what members of your gender have abandoned--your authentic vocation. If they do not, the consequences are clear. When the social experiment we are currently in collapses, by virtue of the experiment, the men will be coarser then they ever were, the women will be subjugated and constricted to a level never seen before. I firmly believe that the contemporary woman is out of control and as such, the aformentioned reaction is inevitable when the fog of pluralism subsides. She must decide whether she is a daughter of Eve or a daughter of Mary. That is the only choice now left to her if she is to salvage authentic freedom, love and religion.

And as for Dr. Helen and her ilk perhaps she should look into the following link and gain true understanding if they are up to the challenge and 'work':

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0974541923/sr=1-2/qid=1154511944/ref=sr_1_2/002-6705074-6764817?ie=UTF8&s=books

5:52 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

I have worked for almost 44 years. I enjoy work and will continue to do it as long as I am able because of that fact alone.

I have a friend, however. His wife suffered a great injury. He took a year off and tended her. Stayed at her side and nursed her, fetched for her, did every bit of work there was to do around their house. This included building most of said house as well. Then he went back to work as a laborer because he couldn't be hired at his age in his prior industry. After two years of that, he was worn out. Literally couldn't handle the physical work. He wanted to take some time off, so he did.

What happened? She is drilling him incessantly about his not working. She gets disability and referrs to that as her "income". She is making money and supporting them, why is he being a "leech"?

This is by no means isolated.

My advice to men -- work if you want at what you want, else wise follow Oprah's advice and "rediscover your lost self".

True equality's a bitch.

9:40 AM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Rizzo said...

I have a hard time relating to these men as I once took a low-paying entry level job, for a short time, to pay the bills after I got my master's degree. So, I don't really have the attitude that any job is beneath me. In fact, now that I have a better paying job that requires that I be a cubicle jockey, I fantasize about what it would be like to have a real job, one where I could move around and work with my hands. Sure, it might not pay as well, but at least I wouldn't be sitting at a desk in front of a computer screen all day...

On the other hand, I wouldn't work if I didn't have to. If I found a woman with money that had no problem with me not working, I would stay home. I would feel better about it if that woman was born into money rather than working hard for it, but either way, if she had no problem with it, I'd do it. Or, at the very least, wouldn't try very hard to find a new job if I lost mine.

But it seems that even women with high incomes still want to marry up. Guys marry women who are paid less all the time. Women rarely do. So, if guys can now get away with a more leisurely, lower stress life while their wives deal with the corporate world, well that's great if you ask me. I hope one day I'm one of them.

10:04 AM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Jenny said...

Like most people here, I don't quite understand the freak-out. So men want to stay at home while their wives work, or while they live off of their personal savings. If they can do it, good for them.

I DO have a problem with men who mooch off of Social Security, but that goes for people who do that in general and not just those with Y chromosomes.

My boyfriend and I are talking about getting married and having a family together. Because he wants to teach at the college level, he says that after the kids are born, he'd want to teach part-time, preferably at night, so that he can take care of the kids during the day. He doesn't want to stop working outright, but he admits that he's not as career-driven as me-- he's more interested in having a family and pursuing his own interests (and since those interests include writing, improvisational theatre, and marksmanship, none of them are particularly lucrative).

Basically, he knows what he wants and actively pursues it. And this is supposed to make him less "masculine" in my eyes or something?

Nope, don't get it. But I'm one of those weird people who thinks a person's worth has more to do with volition and responsibility than with the size of one's paycheck.

12:07 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People seem to believe that the contempt of men in western society is rivalled by contempt of women in muslim society...

Well folks, sorry to disappoint you .

In muslim society too ,it is the man who is expected to protect and provide for the family....

This role is that of the leader of the family.

The muslim society is intelligent enough to recognise this while the western society is not.

Thats why there are so many sissified men in the WEST....they're not acting as the leaders they should be.

As a result of this greater responsibility ,in muslim society the men have certain rights over the women,thats all....there is no contempt of women at all.

Its just that, women are treated like children.....they are protected and provided for but also expected to be obedient and not stray out of line.

This is for their own good.

This does not happen in western society thats why the women are so filthy and so disrespectful of men.

They are full of themselves...and that is what the muslim society tries to prevent.

Anyway, your Bible also tells the woman that her husband is her master and she's is to obey him.

Are you so brainwashed as to think that the Bible has contempt for females ?

12:08 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anyway, your Bible also tells the woman that her husband is her master and she's is to obey him."

The Bible also says that rabbits and hares chew the cud. Twice. (Leviticus 11:6 and Deuteuronomy 14:7).

And...women are full of themselves. So? Is that any worse than men being full of themselves? I'm not seeing what the benefit of this is.

12:12 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous 3times said...

For what it's worth,

I can relate

...and please understand that English is a second language to me, French is my mother tongue, I live near Montreal.
I don't feel what I am writing in English reflects the thoughts in my mind.

I am a 46 year old man who 10 years ago was forced to stop working and to stay home because I was suddenly struck by CFS or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
I am much better now and fairly active.
I can do a lot of things, I just need more rest than I used to, but I'm certainly not bed ridden, and I don't look like a sickly person, I even lift weights about once a week.( curious? I have my profile at Reciprodate under the name 3TimesDoesIt )

Even though I occasionally do some free lance work I am 95% of the time really unemployed, I am not rich but I am not poor either,
The bank may own 1/3, but I do own 2/3 of my home and I have money invested, so I live on about the same amount as a person on welfare,

so even though I can pay for my own way and I am definitely not a gold digger, even though I own my own home and a car, and even though I have a small but regular income, not only is it pretty much impossible to keep a woman interested once she learns about my financial situation ( I am no Brad Pitt but I am a good looking man, that is not the problem here ) but friends say they would introduce me to this woman or that woman if only I had a steady job...

The CFS is not a problem, but the financial situation is, even though a woman would never ever have to pay for me.

That is all I wanted to say,
that I know what it is to be rejected for not being a financial provider even now in 2006...to be rejected even if I have quite a lot to offer besides diamonds and fur coats...

12:17 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I've known only a couple of people who did receive disability pensions and there was not any doubt that they were 100% disabled."

I've known quite a few on disability, and more often than not you see them out driving around, working in their gardens and doing whatnot like anyone else. I think doing some kind of mental illness bit is the easiest way to get on. Soft-tissue injury, no. I know a guy who's on SSD for dyslexia. Between that and his dad's military pension and the money he picks up playing in bands, he's got a pretty good life.
I am stuck between disgust and jealousy.

A lot of morbidly obese people view SSD or SSI as the Holy Grail when all the physical problems start to hit in their 40s. Boy that'll be a budget buster when all these young fatties start collecting SSI 20 years hence.

12:27 PM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 12:08:

Huh? Are you saying that women are like children? If so, you are sadly mistaken. One of the reasons I discuss women taking responsibility for their actions is that this is what responsible adults do. Children need adult protection from their actions at times, adults men and women should not. In the United States, the idea is that men and women are equal--but with equality comes responsibility.

12:30 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Another form of this is basically matriarchal societies, such as the Iroquois, the Comanche, the ancient Celts and Sparta, where women either owned the land, conducted business or ran government, in which menturned their energy to war instead of economic pursuits.

The mechanism in Celtic society and Sparta at least was a culture that taught men to devalue their lives in favor of their honor or reputation or duty or whatever. This is still active in our culture, in the form of the code of chivalry based on (Celtic) Arthurian models. Maybe lazinesss is a better substitute.

As for that Anonymous going on about how Islam doesn't hold women in contempt and how Western men are weak and effeminate, perhaps that explains why Western men have been regularly and uninterruptedly beating the crap out of Muslim men on and off the battlefield for the last 300 years. If God really prefers your way, why doesn't He reward it with success?

Women hold up half of heaven. Or else they get some man to hold up thier half while they adjust a strap or something.

1:01 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anon824 said...

1. I agree on the SSDI issue. How is it that these guys are on SSDI? What exactly is their disability?

2. This is quite a lot of sexism. For an awful long time no one expected women to work outside the home. Granted, these guys seem to be pretty close to what I'd call lazy, but if they are willing to endure the consequences of a Life of Reilly, then let 'em.

1:30 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous MD Man said...

When I first heard about this, my initial reaction was to wonder what was wrong with them. After skimming, I realized, that in fact they are doing the intelligent thing.

One man is working on hobbies - including writing, while his wife works and they dip into their savings. They look to be in their fifties.

What else are savings for? Maybe it will pay off, maybe not.

Three years ago, at 43, after 13+ years at white collar high dollar jobs, I found myself unemployed and without backup. My wife was working, a night job, on the grounds that when I found something, it would almost certainly be a day job and would pay much better. As we have four children we also needed to have one of us available at all times - no real support network.

I looked for work - any type of work - I could not get one at the local convenience store despite the fact they constantly advertised for trainees - I was 'differently qualified'.

In the end, I worked day labor, digging ditches, emptying fish ponds, and finally being a traffic flagger. (That pays better than most retail or fast food jobs).

I did eventually find a very good job again, but we came within four hours of losing our house.

Those men are in fact doing the smart thing - they are gambling that either the non-productive work will payoff (writing) or time will yield something.

If I had to do today what I did three years ago, I would have trouble doing it because of the physical load.

They are not being lazy, burned out (well maybe some of that), or yielding to feminist notions - they are doing what men do when things are bad - they are gambling - because no 'sure thing' has as high a payoff as the gambling.

1:41 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When a guy suffers a bad career setback, the woman in his life will probably react with anger. At him. True whether he's a VP who didn't get the CEO job or a janitor who didn't get promoted to custodian. She may leave him or just settle for making his life miserable.

Women want possessions and social status and mostly don't care about the cost to you of getting them these things.

Some women seem able to overcome this side of their natures and should be treasured. Most do not.

Ignore these realities at your peril.

1:54 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Society does not value men anymore, traditional or otherwise. Laugh at them, run from them, give them hell, feminize them, deny them employment, it's OK, it's PC.

Being that Affirmative Action has not even been hinted at,is sickening. Many men are being discriminated against daily, but the focaus is firmly held on the men that don't want/need to contribute to the economy. Equal opportunity does not exist, but this is no concern? Of course many men cannot find work.

Men are taught to not be angry and defensive, so they swallow everything 'like a man' and move on. But until men start complaining--- nothing will change, why would it!?

2:22 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All that men need to know was captured by Hamlet speaking to Ophelia:


If thou dost marry, I'll give thee this plague for thy dowry: be thou as
chaste as ice, as pure as snow, thou shalt not escape calumny. Get thee to a
nunnery. Go, farewell. Or if thou wilt needs marry, marry a fool; for wise men
know well enough what monsters you make of them. To a nunnery, go; and
quickly too. I have heard of your paintings too, well enough. God hath given you
one face, and you make yourselves another. You jig, you amble, and you lisp;
you nickname God's creatures and make your wantonness your ignorance. Go
to, I'll no more on't! it hath made me mad. I say, we will have no moe marriages.
Those that are married already- all but one- shall live; the rest shall keep as they
are. To a nunnery, go


Sadly, even in the convent they do and would tear each other apart--once again, the men will have to save civilization for when men cannot even have the most basic joys of marriage, fatherhood without incessant conflict, no pretense to 'peace' or softness to mollify the 'wrath' of a woman will suffice, with virtue and justice as guide--a pitched war should be undertaken.

2:26 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When you talk about society not valuing men anymore, be sure you say American (or, possibly, Western) society. There are other societies, and I think giving American women a little competition would be a good thing for improving the misandry situation.

But keep in mind I'm only talking about the aspect of valuing men. Non-Western women have their own set of of behavior that would have to be evaluated independently.

2:37 PM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Jeff said...

This is the weirdest set of comments,

For what it's worth: I posted this at Althouse in response to the same article:

"Not mentioned in the article or here is what kind of
article would be written about middle-aged women who
opted out of work and chose to live off their husbands
or disability. Such an article wouldn't be written, it
would be another dog-bites-man story.

No one would be calling the women "freeloaders",
either. In fact, they would probably be celebrated for
unshackling themselves from the male-oriented rat
race."

There was a good article in New York magazine a couple
of years ago about men whose careers had become
derailed or stalled while their wives careers had
flourished. The gist of it is that the men were
considered freeloaders even while working full time-
the marriages were foundering, of course.

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/n_9495/

3:16 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon237,

Thank you for stating it clearer than I did, I agree.

3:16 PM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

they object to men relaxing, as 1, they are there to pay women money if theres a divorce or whatever..
2. they didnt expect men to actually beleive what they were told and to go out and do it.

anonymous 9.39, i dont know where you live but your petrol prices are half the uk prices..


i have known few women after being home "looking" after their kids or the nannies do, as soon as their hubbie comes in after 8 hours at work or more they say its your turn now. it should be a division of labour, if i work and my wife stays at home, i expect her to cook my dinner, if she workes i expect to do the cooking,

a lot of women expect men to work 8 hours or more then look after the kids, then die young, so they can find a new man, all to keep her in comfort.. men are realising, we die much younger, we burn out, we do dangerous jobs, and we get nothing back. so no wonder they are giving up, i say good for them. and tell these women, its your fault you know

3:44 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You might say men are loafers, and that's okay.

The fact of the matter is, many men have the right to be loafers, thanks to all the BS they have had to deal with.

Other men take another option- going overseas. The more ambitious men simply go to other countries where society isn't biased against them, and serve those societies, and the corporations within them, while making large bonuses, and enjoying a much, much higher status.

You might complain about that saying the old "That's not fair! That's not right!". The fact of the matter is, THAT IS FAIR, and THAT IS RIGHT. Feminist just don't like it, because it undermines their way of life.

When a society abandons men, men have the RIGHT, and not just the right, but the RESPONSIBILITY, to not abandon, and not support it.


This is especially important in European countries that are heavily feminist(UK, Sweden, ECT)

By supporting abusive societies, the men who support them, are in fact abusing other men, by enabling those who would do men harm, increased power.

In not supporting it, in taking our productive abilities elsewhere, or minimizing our productive input into the system and leeching like other citizens, we are hurting the system which abuses us.

The ultimate result: The society either becomes insignificant, not having a real influence on the rest of the world, thus keeping patriarchys alive everywhere, or- The society collapses, creating great opportunities for social stratification, as the social structure is fluid and unstable.

oh BTW, I don't think men shouldn't work, I just think they shouldn't support societies which don't support them. They should work hard, to be productive, and prosperous, but should make sure that as little as legally possible of that productivity, wealth, and knowledge, gets back into the hands of those who have abused them. They should also try and build in other countries, immigrate to other countries, and try and get their friends to immigrate as well, thus pulling any male who is ambitious, competant, and hard working, away from supporting the matriarchy, and focusing their support on buidling up patriarchys.

5:50 PM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger Captain Zarmband said...

The problem is that no one will tell us men what we are supposed to do. Our traditional role is scoffed at and no sensible alternative seems on offer. All men get is criticism and perhaps that's the idea. Not surprisingly many men have decided to go our own way. All we get is a cocophony of contradictary demands, so a lot of us take the view that we no longer care what women want, what society demands and what it is that our modern world expects from us. Don't get me wrong, I'm no slacker, indeed I run my own business, but nowadays I set my own agenda. I know longer care about other people's (especially females) wish lists since they no longer respect me whatever I do. I am resigned to be alone as frankly the alternatives are too dangerous and fraught with problems. I'm not saying that I do not socialise with women, I do, but nowadays they are stricty a temporary distraction. You see I, and other men like me, haven't changed, it's society that is confused about what it expects. If you ever decide let me know. However, I doubt whether I'll care that much. Females are now in charge but you seem to be running around like headless chickens in a permanent state of confusion. I think your experiment with Feminism has caused nothing but trauma for women as you now seem unable to cope with the monster you've created. I think in a generation or two things will revert to the traditional format and men will re-assert themselves but for now I'll go my own way. Remember men didn't create this situation so if it causes a problem don't blame me.

6:21 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW, I'm not directing this at you Dr. Helen Smith.

I'm just venting, and it's aimed at all those women who don't understand that actions have consequences.

Anytime you do anything that really effects someone elses life, there are going to be reactions.

6:25 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks to feminism, the west is de-evolving into a matriarchal ghetto before our eyes. Read "Garbage Generation" (available online) to find out what comes next.

7:10 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Bruce Small said...

And then there is me. I was unemployed once for the three days it took me to drive from Florida to Arizona, and I was unemployed for the four days between my retirement from the big company and starting my own company. Grand total unemployed seven days in 45 years. Must be something in my genes.

7:32 PM, August 02, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

My husband was laid off from his full time job in 2002. He works in the tech field, so since then it has been contract work only. I was also off for a few months (it was heaven) and would stay home if I could. But my husband does all the cooking, food shopping, laundry and most of the housework. In fact, if he got a job, I'd be screwed. I want him to get one for his ego, and the extra money wouldn't hurt either.

I do get a lot of quizzes from friends, but many are ok with it. But I bet if I were home and he were working (we have no kids), nobody would say boo.

9:00 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You men are killing me. When women get out of the work force to stay home they are usually working at home 24/7 with small children. When men decide to stay at home (did most of you hint at this at about 50 yrs old) you will only be taking care of a house without babies/toddlers (infinitely less clean up, laundry, doctor appts., etc.) you will be responsible for guiding older children (who should be trained by now to help around the house and be at least 70% personally responsible for themselves)and cooking for a wife who you can bet has honed time saving personal habits of cleaning as they go along, not leaving the dishes for later, etc. etc. Yeah, after the kids are raised, staying at home is a breeze (remember when you were first married and had no kids?? Usually the wife was still working and home life still was a lot easier). Plus, I know very few women who only do "women's work". Most take care of home repair, cars, travel arrangements, etc. Although I know it is a bit more unusual, I even designed and built our house (yes built, I was the contractor/builder). My husband works hard, but he also appreciates that I work hard - so I do not have to ever explain to him "what I did all day" (which I have heard many a man say). The men in this story are not working at home or in the work force. You simply cannot compare a full-time stay-at-home mom with a man who decides at 50 to stay at home. Now, a full time stay-at-home dad definitely can be a valid comparison. I have known such men, and they are valued highly by their professional wives (and they are incredible dad's/homemakers).

Let's compare apples to apples shall we.

9:29 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're right, let's compare apples to apples. Can you show me the 4-page NYT article discussing the appalling situation of 50-year-old women staying home and not working?

9:52 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can show you a comments section of men giving 50 year old women hell (and leaving them to boot). Most of the women I know work after the kids leave the nest --- or do volunteer work in the community. These men in the article are simply not doing this at all. However, if their are 50 something women who are too proud to work at a "lesser" job and are eating up the household savings to relax and enjoy themselves at the expense of others --- I say, have at them.

10:13 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Anon 9:29,

There are no apples. You are still operating under the notion that the societal experiment presently underway will achieve its goal. It cannot. Why? Men and women are not the same biologically, spiritually and psychologically. As for similarity in jobs, employment and career, your focus is askew. Contrary to what the world, Hollywood or the pseudo-science named psychology (pseudo in that it does not know the constituents of its material object, formal object or method—if it reformed its definition of man, recognizing the immaterial and material aspects of man, it could proceed in a proper scientific manner—hence arriving at authentic conclusions about its ultimate goal. Until it does so, it cannot be, properly speaking, an authentic science) may suggest, it is not what you do but who you are. Existence precedes the ability to capitalize upon the tools of existence. This brings in the notion of vocation as opposed to ‘job’. Any animal, rational or irrational, can do a job. However only a human being, differentiated by gender—conforming himself to natural law, is able to fulfill a vocation. Vocations such as maternity and paternity are not interchangeable. Moreover, there are aptitudes and abilities suited for each gender. Plurality of witness does not equal truth—just because there is a campaign afoot everywhere to redefine the nature of man does not mean that the nature truly changes. Like the previous poster inferred, the world, construed as society, has changed and is changing but he himself has not changed. The vain, obtuse, irrational, immature peer pressure to silence, subvert and crush the will and opinions of those who dare speak an unpopular word in our society today in defense of an ontological reality that will never change is the most pernicious fruit of a collective irrational mind. The crisis in our society today revolves around philosophy, not in the general scope as in yours and mine but specifically relating to epistemology, metaphysics, Aristotelian logic and ethics. If you think these subject are too hard or non-pragmatic, non-utilitarian—you would be making a grave mistake. Philosophy is delayed action but action nonetheless. Finally, in case you did not know, all societal crafters such as Marx, Beauvoir, Badinter and the like all knew where the action was: philosophy. We are now feeling the delayed action—and as Aristotle said: “A slight initial error eventually grows to vast proportions.” We are in the throes of the vast proportions because of innumerable errors, hence, my exhortation to you would be to forget about the apples and study Philosophy.

10:24 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous 3times said...

Men are apples and woman are oranges.

We will never be able to really compare.
We may as well give up and just accept the differences.

But I still think that us
- the apples - we are superior
( I'm kidding of course!!! )

11:01 PM, August 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anon824 said...

I am 55 and have a good job with a good income. I live like a piker and save all I can because I know that if I lost my job I would be unemployable for the most part. I am educated, and white. Society views me as just about worthless, of not worse -- the root of all evil.

12:08 AM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger Scott said...

Dr. Helen:

Well Well Well.

After reading all your replies, I am a bigger believer than ever of Regression to the mean of 99% of Humanity.

It's actually 97 1/2 % of Americans, but the creative, driven ready to accept responsibility for their lives 3% get to choose.

Some inherited wealth but most work(ed) for it.

1:54 AM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger Scott said...

anon824

It's the worship of the youth culture and it's belief that anyone over say 45 is unhip and must have hardening of the arteries (not to mention senility).

When those with that belief system hire and fire, ... there's problems.

Screw them. I live like you and chose to accept responsibility and build a practice on retention clients and commisions based on what creative stuff I can solve for clients each day.

As long as the clients like me, I have security. As long as I serve the clients well, I bring added value.

I have only two risks, disability or death. And I fear neither, I've had a blessed life thus far, and know where I'm going when it's over.

2:01 AM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger John Salmon said...

Heh.

Anytime I'm "fresh out of prison", I like to take a few months to chill befdore I get back to work.

2:36 AM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger John Salmon said...

...before...

2:37 AM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Anon 9:29

Give me a break lady. I was a single parent from my daughter's age of 1 1/2 to 18. It is not 24/7 hard work. Mostly it was play.

Been there, done that, had fun; which is why women can't win that argument with me.

8:59 AM, August 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anon824 said...

My kids are now 23 and 21. The best years of my life were when they were "little kids."

12:21 PM, August 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Staying home with the kids IS more than a full-time job. Now, once the kids are in school, I think there's no reason for the stay at home spouse not to return to work. But prior to kindergarten, it is hard work and most men wouldn't want any part of it. Sure, a 3-5 year old can entertain himself for short periods of time, which is when the caretaker is handling other matters such as housework. Dad comes home. Sure he's worked a full day. But so has Mom. At that point, yes I think Dad should chip in some.

And as americanwoman alluded to above, while the husband may retire at 65, the wife never does retire. Husband doesn't start picking up his share of the cooking and cleaning at that time generally.

But that's alright. All that being said, I don't have a problem with a man not being the traditional provider. I think generally he should be able to support himself at least. But if he's in a relationship where the woman is able to provide and he offers other benefits, then fine.

Personally, my boyfriend is not really able to support himself. I don't mind paying. He's young, gorgeous, sexy, and funny. I guess if we ever got married, sure I would expect him to handle the cooking and cleaning mostly. The problem does seem to be that most men (and I'm afraid my boyfriend may be one of these) are not able to offer any of these other skills either. It is madness to think that you can not bring in an income AND not take care of the house and kids. And I know there are plenty of women out there who have that same ridiculous expectation. Absolutely men, you should not put up with it.

It's a much worse thing for men to allow their wives to stay home for years and then to, when they tire of their wives, leave them and expect that they are not going to have to pay any alimony. So, if you don't want to be in that situation, absolutely I think men should insist that both spouses work. If she refuses, then I guess you'll have to get a divorce now. But better now than later. Of course if both work, that leaves any children in daycare and means both spouses will have to be equally responsible for the maintenance of the children and household (cooking, cleaning, etc.) It probably wouldn't be my preference, but I never really figured I would have the luxury of staying home anyway. As long as you do your share, I'm cool.

12:43 PM, August 03, 2006  
Blogger Eric said...

I've noticed a catch for men where it comes to gender role noncomformity. You can get away with being a lazy, do-nothing slob, but if you think you can be a stay-at-home dad and take up blogging, you'd better be on the left. Otherwise, be prepared for vicious attacks on your masculinity.

1:17 PM, August 03, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Anon 12:43,

You talk so much sense you really ought to post under your own name.

Couple of points though:

"It is madness to think that you can not bring in an income AND not take care of the house and kids. "

Not madness at all. It's called a trophy wife. I hear decent women griping and sniping about them all the time.

Also, after a man retires from his career he doesn't just fold up. Maintaining the car, doing the lawn - all that is housework.

You are right about men not wanting to take care of young children, but it's not the intensity of the work. After, there's no boss and no accountabilty. What could be easier? But it is stone boring. Young children are deadly boring. My mother used to grumble about being stuck at home with pre-schoolers, and not because of the hard work. Lucky for us all that kids are so adorable.

6:04 PM, August 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cannot understand why any comment about muslims is so hostile.

They're responding to the West's treatment of their people.

When the US and UK go to their country and kill their people and create unrest out of peace just for their own interests, aren't the muslims going to be angry ?

And on whom would they direct the anger ? Obviously the people in the West because they are easy targets.

The leaders have tight security . So it rules them out.

And why would they target innocent civilians you think ? Well aren't the US and UK democracies ?

They are . So if the western people elect governments which then go and destroy the muslims , obviously they're not going to be compassionate towards the people.

I am not a muslim but I am amused by the anti-muslim sentiment shown.
Get to know all details before forming opinions.

Muslim men are also men. They're bound to face problems similar to the western men .

In the muslim countries too the women outlive the men. Why ? If they're oppressed ,why ? There is no biology or genetics in favour of women. Get that . Also, the rates of suicides , deaths in all age groups among muslim men is also higher than women, just like the west.

Anyway, i sugessted women were treated like children ,in that they were suppossed to submit to their husbands and fathers.

Well, a woman seems offended.
Well you talk of acting responsibly than why aren't women acting responsibility if they're adults ,huh ?

Why do their faces , skin and their voices resemble more like children and why are they smaller than men ? Yes, they aren't exactly children but they arent men either.

Why don't men and women look alike ? Why do women cry so readily compared to men ? This is also a characteristic that links them to children.Have you ever thought of that ?

Keep your nonsense of equality with you because nature doesn't agree with it.

Because of resemblance to children in so many ways, men feel protective towards women .

But there is no reciprocation to this feeling at all because characteristics of men do not cause such feelings. Why is that so ?

3:50 AM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One last comment...

The West has invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why do you think they have invaded these arb countries under false pretext ?

Because the area is very rich in oil reserves. Iraq is second only to Saudi Arabia in terms of oil reserves.

Why does the West need the reserves ? Because oil is a major factor that governs the economic health of the world and having that factor under your control gives you a lot of power as a country.

And that power translates to more money .

Why exactly does the US and UK need the money ?
Because their people ( all western people for that matter ) use the maximum resources.

Their life is much more luxurious than the developing world and to keep it going the governments need more money.

Also, who do you think spends the most in a typical household ? thats right, the women.

So , that is the cause of the anger of muslims.

Does this look too far-fetched ?

4:02 AM, August 04, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Okay, folks, I'll throw my two cents in here. This is going to be a long one.

If you are a man, and don't wish to work then go for it. I've taken a few work breaks in my time.

However, before you take that extended break, make sure you have money in the bank, a roof over your head, and certainly don't compromise anyone else's standard of living in the process. Your wife will want to retire someday too.

Now, regarding why daddy doesn't want to work. Men get paid more, they get the better jobs, they get more respect in the workforce. But once they start gaining some weight, lose that zip of youth and grow bitter, bossman might start singing a different tune and older men are no longer the corporate wunderkind. The problem here is that very few men learn to deal with this.

However, since women have routinely been underpaid, ignored by the corporate hierarchy and have had to sometimes deal with crappy jobs until something better comes along in order to pay the bills, women become hardened to handle the ups and downs that the workforce sometimes provides. Fire a woman and she finds a new job, fire a man and he requires 3 years of counseling to assuage his ego blow.

If a man isn't going to work then he better learn to clean the house, do the laundry and cook. Go ahead and read your books and play the piano, but after the dishes are cleaned. I can see why some women get frustrated and call the divorce attorneys.

Last but not least, just a personal snippet. 2 months ago I got a request for a date from one of these non-working older men. This potential date was severely in debt, had health problems, no job, no assets and serious problems with depression. His reason on why I should go out with him? He crooned, "I think you'd be good for me!"

My reply as I almost gagged, "Um, I don't thinks so."

10:14 AM, August 04, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

"However, since women have routinely been underpaid, ignored by the corporate hierarchy and have had to sometimes deal with crappy jobs until something better comes along in order to pay the bills,..."

This is different than my life, how? Since it describes my life, I get the pass as well? Or does my mere sex condemn me to some sort of retaliation against all men, guilty and innocent?


"Fire a woman and she finds a new job, fire a man and he requires 3 years of counseling to assuage his ego blow."

Every example from both sides of the sexual divide? Wow. I had no idea that those traits were absolute to the sex. Imagine, no women that sank into depression and alcohol and no man that simply brushed himself off and started over. Do you have a cite?


"2 months ago I got a request for a date from one of these non-working older men. This potential date was severely in debt, had health problems, no job, no assets and serious problems with depression. His reason on why I should go out with him? He crooned, "I think you'd be good for me!"

This is different from my dating experiences, how? Or do you believe that Bridezillas happen simply because the other people just don't care like they do and not from some deeper emotional need? Perhaps you believe that, being a woman, you deserve more in a partner than the man should expect? Your second sentence there clearly describes a goodly number of available women.

11:39 AM, August 04, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Cham,

I'm sure you're good at what you do. But do you have any idea how many half-wit, half-educated, half-responsible sponge-brides there are clogging up the system. It's called a pink collar ghetto. It's what happens when second-income women, old people & kids take work away from single men who desperately need it. We don't have flex-time. We don;t have part-time. Our real wages dropped by 12% between 1974 & 2004 while housing prices sky-rocketed. So we end up having to live off our parents if we get hurt or sick or are damn old (and 30 with a bad knee is too old for a lot of "Man Work"). We can't marry up. Eight out of 10 homeless people are men. Most are under 45. A quarter are under 25. I live in Pennsylvania. There are more SPCA shelters then women's shelter's & not a single men's shelter in the entire state.

You're attitude is typical. It's also hypocritical. Marry. Divorce. Take half. Women do it all the time. Six out of 10 marriages end in divorce. Three out of four are instigated by the woman.

Feminism, by Barbara Ehrenreich's own admission, is movement based on an assumption of the supreme moral value of women. That makes it a hate group.

Here's the thing: You get a lot of disenfranchised, angry young men of military age who can't find work that pays enough to live on, or can't live doing what people are willing to pay them & eventually someone gets up and says, "We don't really need to ask anyone for anything at all, do we?"

You get a group of women working together, you have a committee. You get a group of men working together, you have an army.

I'll tell you a little secret.

I don't want it to come to this. I truly don't. It would not be right to undo the good work that the real Suffragettes like Elizabeth Cady Stanton did. It wouldn't be right. But if it's a live or die thing, I, for one, will not hesitate to act in my best interest. And I know what my strengths are. And I know your weaknesses.

Let it not come to that.

BTW: AmericanWoman. I want to apologize for a post from a few weeks back. Your candor in this thread is much appreciated. Whether I was right or wrong in my earlier comments, I thank you for your candor here.

Let it not come to a war. Gentlemen, ladies, I know how the course will progress. It will not be pleasant. And the winner will not be a winner, just a survivor.

But when you endeavor to deny, by writ or by arms, the right of others to live and survive, when you substitute rhetoric & groupthink for analysis & fairness, when this happens, do not expect the other side not to fight back.

Do not expect them to fight with anything less then every weapon at their disposal. They will. And the enemey will hit you where you are weak & the ebemy is strong. That's life for you. And death.

But if you don't expect that then perhaps it will not come to pass.

This is not a game. Too many good men and women have died, mostly through the non-efforts of sex war carpet-bagging exploiters. Too many.

We all scream, but it is like screaming in space. No one hears. Sound does not carry in a vacuum. And that is what happens when XX & XY draw blades against each other.

But make no mistake, I will defend myself & mine. Make no mistake.

11:48 AM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous the armchair anarchist said...

well said graham, men are discovering ways that bypass the mainstream media, mostly the net, and boards like this, men work together, easier than a lot of women i worked with, we discuss ideas, even silly ones, but we talk, about how to solve, rather than how to reduce the emotional content of arguments.. the moment men start looking around with a critical eye, thats the moment they will enter the mans movement, and since most of the people in the army are men, and since most police are men, and since firemen.. and so on.. isnt it stupid to annoy men who are in charge of peoples lives..

when you dismiss all men, you will create an army, of angry disenfranchised men, who will act out, like the monsters women have portrayed them, they created them.

the revolution will not be televised.. it will be bitstreamed.

3:53 PM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous bobby769 said...

---------------------
Holly said...
Men have been selected by women to be The Good Provider for eons. It's not fair for us to expect them to make the transition away from that heavily socially and sexually rewarded role overnight. Men could take the opportunity to hone the other quality women have looked for in mates for eons: The Good Father. Guys who want to mooch off of The Good Provider ought to be The Good Parent in exchange, no matter whether its taking care of kids, pets, plants, or a partner. Everyone needs tender, loving care. Men can provide more than just 'the bacon,' some just need a little encouragement and coaching to find their tending instinct. I'd much rather see that than a generation of loafers who think they can idly sit on their Easy Street asses.
-----------------------------------

holly i think your missing a very inportant point:
We were brought up and taught to be the provider -
The womans role changed and they were given boooks and tv shows on how to deal with these changes -
Men have been left on our own to figure out how WE should deal with these changes -
Some men are deciding (this one included) I'm taking care of others, its time for me to figure things out on my own because i'm getting no guidance from anywhre else.
So I laugh when you say that
"Men could take the opportunity to hone the other quality women have looked for in mates for eons:..."
I'm ready to look for and hone the qualities I want in myself she can take care of herself.

3:54 PM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous Who cares who I am said...

The Anonymous who defends Muslims said,

"...Also, who do you think spends the most in a typical household ? thats right, the women..."

Well I don't agree about much of what else you said, but I definitely agree with that statement.

And it has been studied, and books have been published, and it should be studied even more because women are the ones who are buying and consuming like there is no tomorrow.

Any man who is living with a woman will tell you, with women there is always something we should replace, or up-grade, there is always something we should buy as soon as possible even if the one we have is fine and almost new...

Women always want new curtains, new patio chairs, new living room furniture, the latest maytag dishwasher because it is the hot item of the moment...not because the ones they have are old or broken, because they want them.

Find me a man who owns power tools or golf clubs in 20 different colors to match the clothes they might wear on a particular day.
Apart from a few zillionaires and rock stars, men don't obsess about new towels and new place mats and new this and new that as if there was no tomorrow.

Almost every man I know says his wife does not care how much things cost, if it's that model she wants, and that color she want, and that brand she want, she does not care if it means they will be further in the red; it is what she wants.

Women in North America control 80% of where the money is spent in their household, it has been studied, yes 80%.

Before women's lib, people kept the same curtains and the same living room furniture for at least ten years, now with most women two years is too long...

My last girlfriend bought new candle holders and flower pots every month, compare that to my buying a power drill and a few other tools in 1992 which I still own and use to fix things so we will not have to buy new ones.
The expense for my tools was an investment, it makes me save money.

Women now will not even cook or sew, all they want to do is buy buy buy!

There is a reason why the expression
" high maintenance " is only applied to wives and not husbands...

In the 70s feminists promised us a world where women would make this a better world because they were more nurturing and caring and would treat the planet like a fragile little baby...but the exact opposite is happening!

Buy buy buy!

5:47 PM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great words armchair anarchist and Graham Strouse. However I would like to address Holly.

"Men have been selected by women to be The Good Provider for eons. It's not fair for us to expect them to make the transition away from that heavily socially and sexually rewarded role overnight."

When did the women select the men? Who put this notion in your mind? Was it a revisionist history class or a gaggle of your peers? Notice that you use the plural when refering to the female and use the singular when refering to the male ('role' vis a vis roles) If you have read this thread at all you will glean one important assertion: we are in the midst of a social experiment that will never come to fruition. We will tear each other apart for sure but the 'asendency' of the female or the 'equality' between the sexes is a pipe dream. You, like many others, cannot seem to grasp the fundamental difference between vocation and job. A job can be done by a machine or a rational or irrational animal. A vocation is very different. It is often said: Men and Women are equal in dignity but different in vocation. This maxim is true. We share the same dignity as human beings, rational animals-- but we do not share the same vocation. Our vocation relates to our nature. This is the very reason why the feminist movement, along with the homosexual movement allied with unscrupulous scientists seek to undermine or 'redesign' the human being and his society. What, pray tell, did you think the purpose of birth control, abortion and the like really meant? In the end, its logical extension leads to the total emancipation of the feminine gender from men, so that reproduction will no longer burden them and 'at last' they can be equal to men--no longer having to endure those 'terrible' 9 months or the frustration of menstruation or what is worse; having to be subjected to a man for procreative reasons alone. I think the world needs to take a long hard look at the word unnatural again. Let it sink in without the irrational jargon such as 'judgemental' or 'negative'. Words represent ontological realities. Strouse is right, it is coming and when the **** hits the fan we will pay the butcher's bill in spades. When that time comes, women will do what they always do, run behind men and beg their protection but this time, the invaders and patriots may dole out the same measure of lamentation. Open your eyes.

5:59 PM, August 04, 2006  
Anonymous William said...

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

The price men have paid for being 'breadwinners' (i.e. fulfilling the consumerist fantasies of their wives constsnt demand for unnecessaries has been earlier death.
It has also meant long separation from the home and children they support - later deemed 'neglect' by the divorce courts.

As usual : heads men lose: tails women win.

4:49 AM, August 05, 2006  
Anonymous armchair anarchist said...

i am all for the right of equality, but its not equal anymore, women expect more rights than men, the first example is female only gyms, ok if they want them fine, but wheres the men only gyms, womens studies courses, wheres the mens studies, the shelters for battered women.. there are hardly any for battered men.

and so on, women are turning men into a slave race.. we are only walking wallets, and as everyone knows there comes a flash point when slavery erupts into voilence.

men do the dirty jobs, i have never seen a woman being a trash collector.. have you if they wanted equality they would apply and do it..

the net is the only freedom that men have, we talk to each other, we work together, the true role of the modern feminist is to turn men against each other, and its happening, for these people politicians mostly, use the female vote to gain power money and sex. leaving men disenfranchised, look at the voting figures more men dont vote, more women do.

women are gaining power, but.. they are poking a stick at a tiger. when men fight back we will fight to the death and beyond.

luckily there are a few women who beleive in mens rights too. equal rights should be about equality.

6:50 AM, August 05, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

I think it's also worth noting (again) that women who don't buy the hype, don't devolve into "the sisterhood" & just try to be fair-minded are more like then not to attacked, politically & otherwise. As men, we should be prepared & not only just willing but eager to defend women who champion us in the political arena. We are weak there. And they are strong. But we must defend our friends where we are strong and they are less so, especially those friends who take physical & emotional risks to champion us where we are weak and they are strong.

That is part of being a man. You don't bolt when your friends need your help. You have all that extra testosterone and size. You have strategic intelligence & a mind geared towards combat. Use it the right way. Those women who defend us will be all the stronger when they know for a certainty that they can use their political power & sway without fear, that when they defend us, they can be assured of one thing, at the least.

If they get caught in a cross-fire & need direct support, they will get it. Being a real man means understanding that in a crisis, we do not abandon our own.

We leave no one behind.

2:37 PM, August 05, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sick and tired of all these stereotyping of people especially of males and disabled people. First of all, I'm a middle aged male who has gone through the whole career track and have worked since I was a teenager. At one point in my working life, I was working 16-hour days under severe pressures of trading. I have even worked three jobs at the same time during a divorce to keep myself busy and keep my mind pre-occupied. When you do word association, what is the word most people associate with "deadbeat"? - Of course, it is "Dad". That's how society and the media has drilled the two words together into people's consciousness. I paid child support for more than 18 years without a single penny of tax credit.

Now that I have been disabled and have serious health complications, I can see glaring looks from people when I park in a disabled parking space. I will gladly trade that parking spot with you if you take the chronic and constant pain I'm experiencing. I will also gladly give you all the time I spend dealing with the nausea and vomiting I experience with the medications. I did not ask to be disabled and never planned my life to be this way. Why do people who appear on TV shows seeking sympathy for skin cancer or botched cosmetic surgeries gain more sympathy when they are suffering because of their vanities?

As for disability payments, try making ends meet on what they pay. It is less than 20% of what I was making before and barely covers living expenses. They even require you to divest yourself of all assets before they cover your medical expenses and that means you have to make yourself destitute in order to get treatment.

2:59 AM, August 06, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

anonymous 2:59,

I hope I didn't mispeak myself but I fear that I did. I'm caught in the welfare trap, too, and most of the physiological damage (first & second degree) came from working ludicrous hours at whatever I could find...and then not being able to find anything for months in-between & catching flack for being a "slacker." Believe me, I understand. Try explaining to a psychiatrist that, no, you don't need more anti-depressants. It's just that being forcd to live on $215 a month & $124 worth of food stamps or lose your health insurance tends to make people pretty depressed & is not pathological but really quite rational, thank you much.

Check that, anon, I imagine you have, in some form or another, gone through this. The details vary, but the consequence

It ain't slacking if you're to old, too sick and/or object to work conditions which are like as not going to leave you dead to soon.

This is an area, I think, where the lib glam girls (and guys) tend to be pretty well clueless.

It's worth passing the ball to Helen here & see what she thinks, methinks, since according to her biography, both she & her husband, did, in a way, go with the old 60s-style flow.

Tune in, turn on drop out.

The reason I'd like to get Helen's perspective on this matter is because she did not, I gather have much of a choice, either--that sounds like one mother of a heart attack.

But she was (and is, I presume) married to someone (Glenn Reynolds, Instapundit) who had a formidable enough income to ponder just giving up work on the fly (I'm looking at her biography here)and either a substantial nest egg or (possibly and) a white collar background in a field where someone with establishment credentials can work on the fly & on the flex & make enough to spackle over the margins.

This may sound like a trap. It's not meant to be. More of a litmus.

Again, anon, sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not at odds with you. I happen to not only be sympathetic but in a very really sense I am you.

Good luck,

G

8:54 AM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Graham Strauss,

I am not sure I get your question to me--but if you are asking if I think dropping out of the work force because of a disbility, age etc. is being a slacker--the answer is no. I understand being disabled--when I had a heart attack at 37, I had a thriving private practice with 5 employees. However, since that time, I have not been able to work in the same way--and am basically doing a flexible schedule and one that has allowed me a lot of leeway (working one day a week etc.) I am very lucky. I have private disability but chose not to use it and to work--but if I had a different kind of job or set of skills, this would not have been possible.

Anyway, from my perspective (I have conducted disability evaluations for 16 years), I have found that the people who worked the hardest at demanding jobs and were injured or disabled often have a hard time getting state funded disability--those who have mental illnesses that are ambiguous, often have an easier time. It is an unfair system at times. But believe me, I understand what it is like to become disabled and wonder what one is going to do financially--until this happens to a person--man or woman, it is hard to imagine.

9:56 AM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello Doc & all you men with you various stories,

I happen to have become disabled several years ago and along with the natural depression of never being able to work the same trade of over 24years again,then there were also some major family changes happening that has thrown me for a loop for some time. The major change was an immature spouse walking out like she always did when any responsiblity was placed on her, so raising two great and wonderful children was left to me and I wouldn't say that would be considered sitting around at all.
I am now volunteering to get an education thru my SSDI and along with another trade inline with this education I am starting a new business soon.
I can not even begin to tell you the mental complications & financial ones the X has caused us all, but I am proud of myself because my kids are on the upper part of great grades in school and well mannered because of the time I have been able to spend with them and showing them that a disability is something I or they can overcome. And the sad fact of it is, that they have seen out of their mother what it is to fake an illness or disability because she sat here for years like an invilid, then walked out & began working a construction job.

I don't have time to read the books I want to yet and that is only because there is still some of me that I am still putting together and also learning new stuff that will greatly help our future and my self esteem.

I haven't read a whole bunch of these blogs yet, but I can say this about my past & present situation. I worked in pain for so many years and it finally broke me down. Yet even if I were the richest man around I couldn't be happy if it meant sitting on my butt. Thank, God, for my kids & the rest of you, please do something meaningful to you.

2:02 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I met my now wife in 1999 we were at parity with work / salary / career progression. Shortly after we started dating an opportunity came for her to interview for a promotion in Seattle. (We were both living and workin in Toronto as American ex-pats.)

At the time I had to decide if I wanted to abandon my job or abandon someone who I felt was pretty terrific. As I wrestled through the decision her interview came and went with additional interviews and finally a job offer.

Without too much fuss I decided to follow my wife to her new job. (My workaholic co-workers were stunned.) In the 7 years since then we got married, moved again for her career to the Twin Cities and we now have a son.

In choosing to follow my wife I set my own career, in a specialized field, completely aside. The second move disrupted my fledgling new career and the birth of our son, coupled with the increasing demands of my wife's career led to the decision for my becoming a stay at home dad.

I'm 38 and don't think "work" is behind me. I've been raising my son and keeping my household on the rails while my wife's job responsiblities have skyrocketed. (She's also working on her MBA in a fast track program to boot.)

You make conscious choices to support the ones you love. Sometimes that involves putting yourself in a place you never imagined. When we met my wife told me that if I wanted a child I needed to find someone else. Ha ha.

Do I see this as a permanant role? The Magic 8-Ball's "Future cloudy, ask again later" answer really applies. I do know that the best lessons I had after being raised by my grandparents and the things I missed with my own father are the elements I'm trying to make sure fill my own son's life over the next few years. I've only got one shot at being a great dad and that's too important a job compared to everything else. A glowing annual performance review seems a poor trade off to a distanced, emotionally troubled teen, something the world seems too full of at this point.

Besides, where's the boy going to learn how to sing the Davey Crockett themesong if I don't teach him?

Best,

Jim
www.thespecialproject.com

3:57 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous jimmy said...

I don't have time to read the other 70 comments but I will comment from my family's perspective.

We are a two earner professional household in an income bracket where 1/2 the second income goes to taxes in one form or another. We are at the tipping point where it makes a lot of sense for the second earner (either my wife or me) to drop out of the workforce and play defense with the family budget rather than the gerbil-wheel offense we've been playing for the last 15 years.

It would make a lot of sense for me to quit... fire the housekeeper, wash my own cars, brew my own beer, make dinners and pack lunches rather than eat out, clip coupons and manage family finance and investments. Heck, since you can flip your primary residence for tax free gain every two years I could easily swap my tie for a hammer and paint-brush and happily join the life-style of a kept house-husband.

I don't think we should over-analyze the whole primal man stuff and the societal pressure angles.

Though I make about $100K a year; I suspect I'm not long for this category of slackers you all seem to despise. It is just dollars and cents.

3:58 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting discussion.

I work, and couldn't really contemplate not working. I get bored very, very easily and anything longer than a 3 day weekend starts to drive me crazy.

That being said, I can sympathize with these guys that just basically say screw-it, I'm going to do what I want.

The deck is stacked against you.

If you follow the "traditional" game plan -- the wife, the kids, the picket fence -- your likely end-game is to be kicked out of your house by your ex-wife, have your kids taken from you and spend a significant amount of time as a wage-slave to alimony/child support. I see this eng-game play out every year amongst my colleagues.

If you follow the "new age plan" -- Mr. Mom and all -- your likely to be disrespected by your hard-charging corporate ex-wife, then still kicked out of your house by your ex-wife, have your kids taken from you and then have difficulty finding a job, since "homemaker" doesn't really make for a good resume builder, regardless of whether you are female or male.

Cynical? Yes, but more true that you want to admit.

The only way to win, is not to play the game. Uber-Slacker, is just one way of several to not even play.

4:42 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Instapundit's link was "ATLAS is shrugging." Perfect.

Real working men have been treated badly and dishonestly. Walking away is a perfectly honorable thing to do.

4:43 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Helen,

I'm a former College prof. I had the misfortune of not being either a socialist or a communist then had the gaul to work for a successful republican gubenatorial election in the southeast in the mid 1990's...when this became public knowledge, I was very quietly told that my (tenure-track) contract would not be renewed. I was offered a political appointment (as junior assistant flunky for whatever) as the politicians family is famous for being loyal to those who work for them, but turned it down as that sort of thing is not my cup of tea. I hid this from my family as I didn't want them to know "why" was was not being renewed at my univeristy...so I became a cabinetmaker and have been doing that ever since.

My family thinks that I"m an idiot for taking, literally a 50% paycut (in the 8 years since, I've reduced that to 25%), but having grown tired of being told that I"ve "wasted my life" and "thrown away" my education...my wife on the otherhand is a busy professional who makes far more than I do, but loves the fact that I come home every night tired, dusty (sawdust) and very happy. I do most of the cooking and laundry, she does most of the "serious" cleaning as "men are incompetent" but we get along very well...where did I find her? In Michigan...we now live in outside of Baltimore and will celebrate our 5th anniversary soon...I'm lucky. She doesn't care how much I make as long as I'm working and happy.

Rich V., PH.D.
Pikeville, MD, USA

4:49 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Captain Zarmband says "The problem is that no one will tell us men what we are supposed to do. Our traditional role is scoffed at and no sensible alternative seems on offer. All men get is criticism and perhaps that's the idea..."
It occurs to me that this is reminiscent of much of the world's criticism of the USA lately. If the US tries to deal with a world problem (say the Middle East, or AIDS or whatnot) they are roundly criticized: If the US responds to such criticism and refrains from "interfering" in worldwide problems, they're raked over the coals again for being "isolationist" or worse.
Ah well, it's always a bitch being the grownup - whether you're male, female, or national.

4:53 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think you can underestimate the role the media play in this. Women control the majority, the vast majority of household spending. For that reason, women are the prized demographic. For that reason, the media caters heavily to women. For that reason, men feel isolated from society, and begin to feel culturally worthless.

Maybe for that reason, men will start doing the shopping and become the prized demographic again, and "Rat Patrol" will come back as a prime time series.

4:55 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Maddad said...

It looks like the article is kind of misleading. These guys have all had contract and off the books work since losing their "real" jobs. The first two guys listed are just seriously confused about what kind of work is really out there and what they need to do to get it, and that's fine, but the article seems to point to some kind of crisis and a hidden mass of unemployed men that doesn't, even from the examples in the article, seem to exist.

4:56 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Simon and Garfunkel, The Boxer

"In the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders of every glove that laid him down or cut him
'Til he cried out in his anger and his shame
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains."

This time around, the fighters are leaving.

4:59 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger clinton d. berry said...

Dear Dr Helen,

Regarding your essay on men, I was not aware that anyone in particuliar wAS complaining. Its really a sad state of affairs the western male has been relegated to. No matter what he does, he just cannont seem to come up to the standards of clinical psycologists.

First of all, about the very nature of men and women. Obviously, there is a physical difference in outward appearance. By nature, man is a hunter, gatherer, a builder and a creator and provider. His nature is to be outside of himself. In other words, his nature is the external and the very opposite of woman. On the other hand, womens life by her very nature is internal and turns inward to the child, the home....or even her work as her child would become her work...These two recipricol effects compliment God's handy work and create the most beautiful work of Art known.

In defense of man, Today man is considered an aberration. Because of the false Gods society worships and the anti-thesis of Art, beauty, etc. Man has been relegated to pieces...and if you are lucky...you will find enough pieces...like humpty dumpty...to put back together again...So, Man becomes the broken statue, the not so perfect piece of art...In todays society my dear....it is left only to Courageous and Noble Woman to search for and find that broken thing we call man....and restore him to his kingdom, his throne, his love of you and of life. It is up to you to make man a master of his own destiny again and give of yourself...in a way...he becomes your child, your canvass, your art and yes!!!! YOUR MASTERPIECE...only then will man become his true nature...and become man...and he will in turn...make you my dear...make you a Woman...not just any woman...but a REAL WOMAN, who will fight for her young to the death....and fight for her man...to the death...and fight for her country
to the death. Only then will Man fulfill his destiny and only then will woman fulfill her destiny and become a Real Woman by the grace of almighty God. "Ars Longa, Vita Brevis." Clinton Berry

5:05 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Staying home and pulling a full day's work around the house is fine. Staying at home and sitting on your ass or playing at hobbies is lazy.

That goes for both men and women.

5:31 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hah, hah, hah ... that's a good one ... "Fire a woman" ... ROFL

Other than entire plant / business closings or major restructurings where you can prove that 6 - 7 white guys are let go for every woman or gender / shade minority, it is all but legally impossible to "Fire a woman" in America.

If you are supervising an under performing woman and (assuming) you can convince your boss AND human resources that said person needs to go, you will be directed to craft a unique "Developmental" plan to give said individual all the opportunity possible to "improve their performance" including providing massive amounts of 1 on 1 "counseling" time and "where available, quality off site training." After another 6 - 8 months of under performance you MIGHT actually able to "Fire a woman" (but at this point probably another level of mgmt has stepped in and you have to start all over again).

Of course, by this time, even the dullest under performer will have figured out the game and is ready with her Sexual Harrasment claim, complete with documented times where you had her alone (remember all of those "counseling" sessions") and witnesses to the "Hostile work place" that you fostered because you were out to get her because she was a woman.

The truth is "Fire a woman and she hires a lawyer"

(Posted as "Anonymous" for obvious reasons in today's business climate where only white males have no civil rights)

5:38 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The real reason is that we can't get away from women anymore. You're at work when we get there and you are getting on our nerves.

Sheesh. Is it so hard to figure out.

5:48 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's interesting how folks project their own baggage onto this topic. Personally, I think the sensitivity is generational. My father, a very successful engineer, was forced into early retirement in his late 50's -- he was completely devastated. Being The Provider and Patriarch was his function in life and it was heartbreaking to watch him (and my mother) try to cope with the loss of that role.

My husband is the same age I am, works full time (as do I), and shares almost all aspects of family maintenance from house to kids -- I think he would tell you that his primary role is Partner. Working together keeps us strong... and if either of us slacked off we'd start losing ground in a hurry.

Our oldest daugher is nearly 18 and she and her group of friends, male and female, seem even less concerned about gender roles. I think it's part of our evolution.

Change itself isn't bad... it just requires a few related shifts to keep things in balance.

5:57 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember when I first realized that I might be able to beat my dad in a fight. At first I felt powerful, but then I realized if we ever did actually fight and I won it would have been awful for both of us.

What does this have to do with anything? My point is that we get it, ladies, you do have the capacity to "break" some of us. You've proved it (although it's really nothing to be proud of). The question is, do you really want this? Do you want to be with broken men? Now that you've felt the power, you might want to think a bit more about how you wield it...

6:05 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Steve said...

I didn't read all the comments, but I noticed a pattern. Men seem to be consumed with acquiring a great job, or just giving up and sitting on their butts. What about working for yourself, guys? Small and even one-man businesses are the wave of the future, I have worked that way for over 30 years, since I am too independent for the corporate world. I've had two self-employed careers since my menial-job days as a teenager and student, and have enjoyed both very much. Neither career had direct connection to my college degree, but that didn't seem to cause a problem. Neither cost much to start, and both felt better than being on the dole. Cripes.

6:08 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cannot begin to count the number of women at my workplace who come down with "baby rabies" and go on maternity for the max time and then never return. While they are gone they cannot be replaced so the burden of their work gets dumped on someone else's shoulders.

If a man takes time off for anything he is slacking. A man who took time off to raise kids would be suspect at best.

6:08 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This thread made me think of the TV show Home Improvement. I didn't get it when I was younger, but now I can't even watch it because of how badly the wife treats him (and the kids aren't much better). Tim the Tool Man is the prototype of the man who will end up questioning whether it was all worth it.

It's mind-blowing how many commercials now make guys look stupid and emasculated. We may not make many of the purchase decisions, but if advertisers think we don't notice this stuff, and that we don't adjust our buying patterns because of it, they're wrong...

6:15 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Mearcstapa said...

This has everything to do with our culture's huge devaluation of the family. Hey, guess what, it's a lot of work to raise a family. And when your society tells you there's no good reason to, then why do it?

Of course, a real man should be able to see through our culture's bullshit and know that being a responsible, traditional dad really is the right thing to do in life. Homer Simpson is a comedy character, not a role model. He's not an excuse to slack off. Same with Cosmo.

6:28 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A followup article, discussing how the population of unmarried/never-married men in their late 30s and later is exploding.

Mencken would not approve, but if he'd been keeping up with the news on gender relations, he would not be surprised.

6:36 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right. Fathers never evaded their responsibilities to their wives and kids before feminism happened.

6:49 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Vulgorilla said...

I'd love to have a job, but since age discrimination is running rampant in this country it's pretty much impossible to obtain employment unless I want to bag groceries. I'm a successful, degree holding Electrical Engineer, but alas, am over 55, and therefore unemployable. The NYT, as usual, is full of it.

6:55 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous tony parnki said...

Scott,

You Seem to Choose random Words to capitalize. It's as If you Didn't Know the basic Rules of writing English Prose.

What are You, Retarded or Something?

6:58 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Richard said...

I am interested in geneaology but my mother is reluctant to talk about her extended family. There was a pattern among the men of getting fed up with the boss at work and quitting as a matter of honor. Unfortunately, a period of poverty for the wives and children followed. I have a sister who is bipolar and I now suspect that was the issue in earlier generations. Non-working men is nothing new. Subsidies for this behavior are, however.

7:10 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger SwampWoman said...

Guess it depends on the individuals. Husband and I took turns throughout our married life (29 years so far) of working together in a business, working separately in different careers, getting additional education, and not working at all. He was the one that generally took care of the children after school.

It helps a lot that neither one of us feels particularly deprived if we're not driving the latest and greatest vehicle or we choose to pay off mortgages in 10 to 15 years instead of 30 (present mortgage will be paid off in a little under 3 years).

His career is going well right now, mine is being outsourced; time for another career change perhaps back into self-employment or some additional training for a new field.

7:14 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger SwampWoman said...

And it's never particularly bothered our pride to drive a truck (him) or waitress (me) when nothing else seemed to be available, self-employment income was mighty scarce as well, and nobody cared that we had college degrees.

7:20 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger Billy Beck said...

Cham -- "Now, regarding why daddy doesn't want to work. Men get paid more, they get the better jobs, they get more respect in the workforce. But once they start gaining some weight, lose that zip of youth and grow bitter, bossman might start singing a different tune and older men are no longer the corporate wunderkind. The problem here is that very few men learn to deal with this."

Okay, fine then. I'd like you to bring all your brilliant analysis to bear and explain to me why this was not a problem fifty years ago.

Take your time. I'll wait.

7:47 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Billy,

Fifty years ago was 1956. (I do your math because clearly you are too lazy.)

That was a different world. You might review the history of industry in America. Blue collar jobs, unions, pensions that were there when you retired, and so on.

Take your time. I'll wait.

8:00 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

First off, it's nice to see that I have something in common with the Puppy Blender; i.e., a beautiful and intelligent wife. Hope you're feeling better Helen.

I am a 36 yr old father of three, professional, wife stays home, lots of bills, etc. You know the drill.

I am a bit dismayed by the sex-antagonism. The flat out bitterness of many men in this thread (and damned intelligent men, too) should underline the basic cause of the conflict; we aren't people, we're meat.

This is a cultural thing. My sister-in-law put it best when she defined the basic difference as follows:

Women protect from threats close in. (What's in your mouth? Don't put the fork in the outlet! Does that dog bite?)

Men protect the "outer circle" of threats. (Do I have enough ammo? What's up with the NASDAQ? Can I get a better interest rate?)

America now has a negative savings rate. We are embroiled in a war without end. Who the hell knows what's going to happen tomorrow? In short, as Peggy Noonan put it in an article not long ago "the wheels are coming off". Outer threats are not primary in our minds. We are short-sighted as a culture, and men have alienated themselves by not putting up with it. Think, gentlemen. How many stupid-assed accounting moves have you seen at work to bolster the bottom line THIS QUARTER? It's going to bite you at year-end closing. Our skills in perceiving and defending from long term threats are not valued right now.


They may never be again. I value women, especially my wife and two daughters, but the short-sightedness becomes pretty damned galling. This is a general statement about our differences, and not a remark about a particular woman (except of course my wife, who can indeed be short-sighted, and I gleefully point it out when it happens).

Anyhoo, it's another perspective. Thanks.

8:09 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.newswithviews.com/Yates/steven21.htm

8:15 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suspect this is a symptom of an economic crisis, wherein society hasn't caught up with technology. We are at the bottom turn of the proverbial S-Curve, on the brink of an explosion.

People -- be they male or female -- respond to the value that society places upon them. When that value is 8 bucks an hour scrivening hand-written reporting into an inefficient, buggy computer system with no benefits, and a boss that does not know our name, workers will be ready to find something else.

I did. I'm probably part of the young male demographic that the article moans about. Looking back on my life working for other people, the best boss I ever had (the scrivening data entry job, with the boss that kept calling me "Jeff" when my name is "Joseph", even when congratulating me for a job well-done) once used my Hyundai as a blast shield for her Jaguar during an electrical fire in the office. Requests to increase my salary to something livable and/or provide me with some kind of benefit package were denied by bosses in a city far away, that did not even know my face, much less my name. Since I couldn't afford to move out of my parent's house, I had a forty-five minute commute through heavy traffic, too.

Forgive me for having a bad attitude and for feeling unvalued by society. Gee, I wonder why I felt compelled to pursue other venues of making a living.

I'd be bitter if I wasn't so happy doing my own thing, and making a better living at it. Not everyone who leaves their job to pursue their art will fail miserably.

And, frankly, the assumption many people have that someone (and America) will fail if we abandon the nice, safe corporation is offensive to us working artists and intellectuals and freelancers outside of corporations.

In this new world order, I can do things on my laptop in a few hours in a cafe that used to take corporations weeks.

There were some lean times, and some scary ones, but by abandoning a system that didn't work, I was able to build one that did out of thin air and dreams.

By abandoning the corporation, I did more than just cut out middle men. I also cut out all the stupid corporate togetherness activities and unqualified oversight that slowed my creativity down, sanitized it, and dehumanized it. Ultimately, an educated population's only asset (and America's largest export) is our imagination. By liberating our time, we not only get to spend time with our families (for the first time since the industrial revolution), but we also liberate our creativity. Yes, not everyone will come up with a great idea, or start our own freelance businesses. But, many, many will, because we are actually competent.

Men leaving the workplace does not scare me at all. The corporate system is broken.

Let the women have it. In ten years, feminists will be witching about how men -- once again -- beat them to the party, and how women are behind the times. Nowadays I see the female spouse in the corporate world for the benefits packages doing god-awful corporate things, while the men freelance from home (and occasionally make more or less than the female spouse... but freelancers are literally paid what they are worth. If I want to know my value to society, all I do is open my bank account and look at my last few payments. Soemtimes it goes up, and sometimes it goes down. Overall, I make more money than the women in my life, and I have the constant potential to make even more if that next idea I have is just a little bit better, or timed just right...)

Enjoy your MBAs, ladies. Have fun in your meetings, and daling with the corporate bureaucracy.

Meanwhile, technology is creating a freelance future. Go ahead, try to keep up with me and my efficient little fingers on my laptop in my house where I didn't have to commute, or call a meeting to launch a business plan. I'll succeed and I'll even be an active, full-time father, too.

8:44 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You believe what you read in the NYT???

9:04 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since when does anyone think that an article in the NY Times is based on solid research and reflects a mature & considered understanding of that which it is reporting - much less, an accurate story?

It all starts off with a false premise - that there was a golden age where things were better than they are now - "and you knew where you were then, girls were girls and men were men...didn't need no welfare state, everybody pulled their weight, gee our old LaSalle ran great, those were the days!"

Sorry folks. Things have always been messy. People - men & women - have always colored outside the lines, when they had the chance to do so.

Sure, the biology & psychology of men & women are different - it's more usually complimentary rather than polarized, though.

Sure, some people are slackers, & some gold diggers. I doubt that the proportion has gone up.

But if the NY Times reports something, take it with a grain of salt. Or a whole shaker.

9:16 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Joan of Argghh! said...

I haven't seen a man actually work in the corporate world. Sure, they meet, they talk, they plan and plot and change meeting times, they "team-build" and set up more meetings, they gossip---lordy, do they gossip!-- send jokes to each other, etc. The admin assistants do all the real, "work".

Let the flames burn...

;)

10:09 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous Robert said...

This is a number of random points.

Work is hard. I like what I do and the people with whom I work, and it is still hard.

It is a variation of the welfare issue. Why would someone work when they can get by without working? Some will and some will not.

My direct experience is that many of those who consistently avoid work have do have some psychological issues. In the case of my wife, it is weak interpersonal boundaries. In the case of my sister, she lives in a different reality.

It is a fact that white males in their 50s to face additional hurdles. After 9/11 times were really bad for my business and I was looking for another job. I know that a female or minority in my position would have had an easier time finding something. I finally had to go back to some folks who knew me from the old aerospace days and move across the country to find a decent job. Had I not been willing to relocate, I might be living in our cabin in the Oregon woods making just little enough to qualify for Medicaid.

If I could work part time, I might be willing to go to 70. At 40+ hours/week plus another 10 hours to stay technically current, I’ll probably cash it in and drop out in my late 50s.

One thing that the male laments herein never mention is the pernicious impact of unrestricted immigration on traditionally male jobs. There is no reason to tailor physically demanding work to an aging population or increase wages because there is an unlimited supply of workers willing to do those jobs. Other traditional male jobs are being out-sourced or automated out of existence (many of these semi-skilled factory jobs are also female and are being performed by young woman in China). The double whammy of outsourcing and in-sourcing puts a huge squeeze on the lower middle class. Outsourcing is probably a good thing for the world as a whole. In-sourcing is a political decision that has less justification.

Highly trained technical people in shrinking fields face the same problem. The jobs are going overseas and the non-[white males] get preferences for what is left. So if are not a top 50% performer, have not spent the extra 5-10 hours per week to stay technically current in your field, or are not willing to relocate, the prospects are not good. When good software professionals are at a premium again and wages are climbing, the clamor for increased H1 visas will similarly increase.

I cannot imagine what a laid off guy my age with so-so experience and skills goes through.

10:58 PM, August 07, 2006  
Blogger rickl said...

Whew! I've just spent over an hour reading the comments, and these are among the most intense comments I've ever read in a blog post.

Now I know I did the right thing when I dropped out of the rat race.

I have a good job. I don't make a lot of money, but I do OK and I'm pretty good at what I do.

When I say "rat race" I'm not talking about work. I have two cats. I love them very much and they seem to like me. 'Nuff said.

11:47 PM, August 07, 2006  
Anonymous greeneyeshade said...

Anonymous at 9:04 and 9:16 had a good point, though it's funny to have the New York Times singing Archie Bunker's theme song.
I've been a newspaperman long enough to raise red flags when I see stories built on abstractions like "many" and "thousands." Someone at the Times should have done the same.

12:47 AM, August 08, 2006  
Blogger Protagonist said...

What a bunch of crap I'm hearing from everyone!

Folks, the phenomena of male adult chronic unemployment isn't complicated. Or even that novel. There is a bottom margin of slothful men who will not work if they don't have to do, so long as they mantain a minimal level of comfort. Modern society/technology makes it much easier to be unemployed. Modern convenience has allowed that margin to get larger.

Cultural influence itself has nothing to do with this. It's the solipsistic man, who doesn't care what other people think, who chooses to live his life as a bum. It's men who've never learn to make achievement, rather than entertainment, their primary source of happiness.

This post has turn over a real big rock. I never known so many men hated women so much. I'm read alot of latent anger at women for holding men back, and alot of projection onto them of their own inadequacies.

If women are making you feel denigrated because their ostensibly more altruistic, then maybe the problem is Altruism itself. Men, stop feeling like you have to kill yourself to make your woman and children happy. Give them what maximizes your self-esteem of seeing them happy and well, and not a penny more. It's your wealth, your work, your life and no one elses.

1:02 AM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I question how the population of unmarried / never married men in their late 30s and later can be exploding without comparable numbers of unmarried / never married women also existing out there. Who are they and where are they?

1:20 AM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...There is of course Rowena Hellfire but, that's a special case.

1:21 AM, August 08, 2006  
Blogger Norman said...

Well, I can't even afford a woman to begin with, so this discussion is academic to me.

1:39 AM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Joan of Argghh! said...

I haven't seen a man actually work in the corporate world. Sure, they meet, they talk, they plan and plot and change meeting times, they "team-build" and set up more meetings, they gossip---lordy, do they gossip!-- send jokes to each other, etc. The admin assistants do all the real, "work".

Let the flames burn...

Thanks for the invitation. Now let me dump some more fuel to the fire. One time I hired a woman as an assistant and she was so nice and pleaded for the job even if another candidate with more qualifications competed for the same position. I decided that she needed a break and will work as hard as anyone else. It worked well for several months until she started revealing her true self with all the little stuff you mentioned above with other female employees. When we are up against a deadline, she will call in with her convenient excuse of "female indisposition" and there is nothing we can do. She gets really mad when she does not get the raise and performance review she wants. It got worse and when the H.R. department finally wanted to get rid of her, she starts screaming that they can not do that to a "pregnant" employee. More than 10 months passed and there was no baby.

Now, it might just be an exception but look at the statistics - men live, on average, shorter lives than women. There are various explanations but I believe the main contributor to the shorter life span in the pressure of working and lots of risk-taking. Also, take a look at the suicide rate in the following:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/suicideresearch/suichart.cfm

4:41 AM, August 08, 2006  
Blogger Doug said...

The article was foolish. How can someone without a job able to afford pursuing hobbies, unless the hobby is watching TV.

9:37 AM, August 08, 2006  
Blogger Russ said...

Why are people complaining, or why are women complaining?

Well, here's my male scorn at those who have bought into Levant and the rest of the machine: since when do men listen when a bunch of whining women and pandering pseudo-intellectuals tell them to turn into this or that based on their ideological flavor of the week?

Re-read "Duty" from The Notebooks of Lazarus Long.

The whole NYT debate is based on a con game involving women (some of whom have posted in this thread) who are fundamentally unable to come to grips with the fact that men are not women, and for whom the emotions they prefer to elevate simply aren't very important or helpful. We go through that stage at about 12. Then we grow up.

Choosing to take a while off is part of that, if that's the way the dice have gone. Choosing to eat into your future livelihood and thereby set yourself up to be a ward of the state by becoming totally unemployable, on the other hand, isn't. He wants to find himself? Fine. He can do it on *his* life savings, and using a tiny subset of pathetic, frustrated women ideologues as an excuse to do so simply a cop-out. These guys are a bunch of rotten apples who have decided to just give up, because it's easier to be leeches. A real man who wants to go find himself does it the real way -- by saving up enough, even if that means working some crap jobs, not to become a burden in the process.

Men are less important than women are. Life ain't fair. Deal with it. "Dealing with it" is what men do. Women discovering that they are getting to a place where they can take up more of that slack w/o running themselves into the ground? Great! But that's their deal -- not a function of my emotional maturity, and any man who thinks otherwise is a sap who needs to *grow up.*

Full Disclosure: I sacrificed not one, but TWO careers to be married to my wife. Guess what? **MY** choice. **MY** circumstances. **MY** productive day gig, my well-planned career change in progress, and most importantly, **MY** stereotypically male lack of whining and cringing about the cost side of the equation.

It's a great marriage, btw. Wouldn't go back.

10:09 AM, August 08, 2006  
Blogger ScottG said...

"Men protect the "outer circle" of threats. Do I have enough ammo?"

That question could generate as many comments as this post did....

10:22 AM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing has ben said about the age of the dropouts. At age 30 it means something much different than at age 50. Getting back into full-tilt Provider mode is a bit harder when age kicks one down 3-5 notches in the income ladder. Half a basket of information can build incomplete conclusions.

Companies want people who can be motivate by promises of promotion and reward. They don't need people who cannot be incentivized by a promise of rewards in the future.

The nature of work is a wee bit more complex than the multiple choice answers provide.

12:08 PM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Robert said...

Forgot to mention thje underground economy. "Dropping out" means dropping out of the IRS/Social Security/paid health insurance rat race. Does not necessarily mean total lack of gainful employment. Who is going to admit to the NYT that they are flouting the IRS?

1:35 PM, August 08, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Holy Cow! What a bunch of bitter, rage-twisted comments... Sounds like a lot of these guys are full-fledged misogynists: they resent their wives (if they don't hate them), haven't the foggiest notion of respect for their partners nor ahy appreciation of the nobility of work. They all hate their jobs, think they're slaving away while the wimminfolk are home eating bonbons. Sheesh.

Guess I'm lucky that I love my job, love working, love my kids, and love my husband. And I am so glad I'm not married to one of the whiny rage-bags on this thread. Is there no other person reading this who actually finds their work fulfilling and rewarding while not dodging their family responsibilities??? Being a free person means willingly shouldering the responsibilities that go along with liberty, people, get a grip and kwitcher kvetching.

12:57 AM, August 09, 2006  
Anonymous Drop Out said...

Halleluia! I'm a bum!

Once I had an MBA, a respectable executive career, a wife, kids and mortgage. It was killing me. I put in 12-16 hour days only to have to come home to a viscious cur that had no appreciation for my sacrifices.

That was 10 years ago. Since then I have junked the lot of it. Now, I live on my marginal musical talents and the generous tax contributions of the rest of you suckers. I spend my time in peace and tranquility. I persue my own interests at your expense.

Don't expect me to thank you either. I have nothing but contempt for the bunch of you.

You women can continue to get your revenge against your husbands by going home with me after a gig. Just so long as you are gone before morning.

You so-called men make me sick. But that is okay. You can still be my slaves. Ever wonder why your kids look more like me than you? The reason is simple. It is the master's perogative to use his property as he sees fit. Now, get back to work!

2:46 AM, August 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wives are always pimping their husbands for more money. Husbands are simple people and happily prostitute themselves for regular sex.

If the husband, however, fails to "provide" to the wife's standard for any reason, the wife will belittle the husband constantly and she probably won't even know she is doing it.

Men only want sex and they admit this truth about themselves.

Women only want money (a "provider") but they deny this truth about themselves.

Men are honest with themselves and know how shallow they are.

Women are worse than men because they deny the truth about themselves and how shallow they are.

3:37 AM, August 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:37
Thank you for a measure of truth concerning the modern female. How refreshing!!

4:44 AM, August 09, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

the start your own company myth is just that, the latest uk figures from march to june 2006, 25,000 companies and people went bankrupt,

in 3 months, this affects their lives and their familes lives..

luckily i have a fiancee who is a partner rather than a leech. a true partner, we have never argued we talk about things calmly and rationally.

6:18 AM, August 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think some of the blowhards ought to back off the rhetoric a little. Some of the "slackers" have been through shit you couldn't handle, period. Some of them have more character in their little finger than you have - or ever will have.

7:23 AM, August 09, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Anon 3:37 wrote: Wives are always pimping their husbands for more money. Husbands are simple people and happily prostitute themselves for regular sex.

Huh? What are you saying? The entire post is full of misandry and misogony where men are given a back handed compliment that goes something like "At least men recognize and admit that they are shallow assholes." What a post! What happened to you that you hold on to such a negative view of the sexes?


Trey

12:49 PM, August 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see a few things about why so many men are frustrated these days. For men in the baby boomer generation, it's because the rules changed along the way. The expectations put upon men in terms of sharing feelings and "growing" in the '90s and later are nothing like what the men thought they were getting into when they got married in the '60s and '70s, yet the women they married expected them to change, and many left when they didn't.

For the younger generation, it can feel like we get attacked for things we never did. A woman at my work often says out loud, "if you want something done right, ask a woman." There's no way a guy could get away with saying this. The point is that she's old enough that she probably had to put up with a lot of sexism when she was younger, but the younger generation didn't do it to her, and we're paying the price by having to listen to this garbage. Is it no wonder so many men feel confused about what our role is, and why exactly we're supposed to feel a sense of guilt just for being male?

Basically, my point is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. Men probably used to get away with too much at work and at home in terms of treating women badly, but now it's women who have turned the tables and have the power to do the same, and sadly too often do choose to do so. Things will only get better when both genders realize that we both have power now, and things work best when we use it to make ourselves and others stronger as opposed to breaking them down.

4:40 PM, August 09, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Ladies and gentlemen, I don't need to hide. My name is my name, even if Helen can't spell it.

Let's do something & stop the violence we can. If we don't, surely, and I have an inside track on this, it will be perpetuated.

I am very easy to find. I leave no one behind. Find me.

Incidentally, getting a PhD in psychology or a law degree is no more then mental endurance and memorization. It is something best left to a machine. Everyone should know this.

6:35 PM, August 12, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Gentlemen,

May I suggest the following solutions to the American virus that is, sexual perspective depending, either the god, Mercury, or Lady Luck.

1) Invest in an account on Match.com. All I want for Christmas. Not all women are digging for filthy lucre and it just so happens that there are many panicky women in the 30-45 (and older) range who've suddenly realized that they won't win the marriage lottery. Also a lot of very nice ladies from other countries who never bought into this perverse aspect of the American Dream. Loot usually is not a factor and you don't have to be Brad Pitt. True, it helps if you like kids. But I do like kids. And I feel a certain sympatico for single women with children. Chronic conditions & all. I had cancer surgery, have a couple expensive meds & and can't gamble with a low-paying job that deprives me of insurance. Pretty chronic, but so are kids. And frankly, guys treat single women with kids about the same as women treat single guys without a lot of money. That is to say, like s***.

2) Leave the country. There's a huge demand for English teachers in China. Knowledge of Chinese is not important. If you've got idiomatic English down pat & a decent education, you're in like Flynn.

3) Pick a part of the country to live where the cost of living is low and a fair portion, even a plurality of the male population are chauvinist pigs. I miss being able to be a proper liberal. And I like having something to shoot at. Hey, nothing wrong with going to a place where what you look like gets you in the front door. And if everyone else is the dumb thug and a punk and you're not, you'll make yourself popular real fast amongst the decent guys and gals.

4) Become a country singer.

3:46 PM, August 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whew... and I thought that I was the only one attracting all of these middle-aged men who for many reasons cannot/will not work!
All of this hostility and bitterness aside, I really think that the world worked a heck of alot better before all of this "feminism" and changing of roles. As an aging babyboomer myself I would like to see the the return of "traditional" or "old-fashioned" values!

11:21 AM, August 19, 2006  
Blogger Verlch said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce

Care to read over that article. Men do not marry because we do not want to be supporting some women until death because we were married to her for a few short years.

http://verlch.blogspot.com
we talk about the issues there.

There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper.

States in the US handle billions of dollars in alimony and child support arrangements, which commonly result from divorces. (According to a 2003 US census report, 43.7 percent of custodial mothers and 56.2 percent of custodial fathers, are divorced or separated.) A 2005 Census Bureau Report found that in 2002, $40 billion had been paid in support arrangements by 7.8 million payers, 84% of whom were men. States also collected federal incentives to collect support payments, with a potential incentive pool of up to $454 million in fiscal 2004. A media kit for the National Child Support Enforcement Association, a child support advocacy group, claims that 60,000 professionals work to administer and enforce


The above is from the article. If you read it, you will find men lose custody 90% of divorces. 40 billion changed hands from men to women in one year. And women filed for divorce in 70% of the cases.

Why are we men supporting women's indpendence from us?

5:06 AM, August 20, 2006  
Blogger Verlch said...

95% of men used to work, with the addition of 60% of women entering the workforce, the amount of men working has fallen 10%.

Now women are forced to work, prices have risen to account for two working families. Now most men have to send their wives to work, you feminists have upset the economy so much, you wommin have to work.

It's funney how much women hate it when men express their free will to think beyone the front door of their house.

1:49 PM, August 29, 2006  
Blogger Matriarch Verlch said...

Yeah...check out the link from Verlch

diverging trends appeared starting around 1980 (e.g. the rate of divorce among college graduates had by 2002 dropped to near 20 percent, roughly half that of non-college graduates).

Mmmm...interesting.

4:41 PM, August 29, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I now sure that you are a feminazi in disguise, doc.

5:36 AM, September 07, 2006  
Blogger Verlch said...

MV, go home, your husband nees somebody to talk to.

6:59 AM, September 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you've missed one important detail...when the women were not working, they were taking card of things...laundry cleaning, kids schoolwork, errands etc. The guys today want to be taken care of financially and sit around doing nothing but what makes them happy. Pick up a broom and pay some attention to your children and we wouldn't mind going out to work and supporting you.

2:34 PM, September 28, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm 47, male, and work 55 hour weeks. I love all the work I can get. My nephew turned 30 this year and worked one year in his life (in high school), helping his father do janitorial work. I come from a hard working family. I see that I am very old-fashioned. The nice thing about my situation: I have saved enough money to live 8 years without work if I had to (in case America heads into another Great Depression).

1:01 AM, September 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Men have just gotten lazy. My experience has been that men do not want to support thier families anymore. They also do not want to help with chores and if they do earn money, they use it for only themselves. I am a female that gets up at 5:00 am every morning. I get our children ready to take to daycare so that I can earn a living for them. Then when I get home I cook for my family. If I relied on my husband my children would starve and be living out on the street. In short, most women have no choice but to work. In the meantime our children are being raised by strangers. Men need to quit whining and say they don't know what to do anymore. Well you can earn much more respect if you will get out and work and then bring your money home to your family. You will also have much more self respect. I do put the blame on women because we allow this behavour. Women have made it too comfortable for them and you give a man an inch and they will take a mile.

12:00 PM, October 25, 2006  
Blogger marvin said...

Sleep Learning.
It is proven that chronic sleep problems affect 40 million Americans every year and an average of 20 million to 30 million individuals will lose sleep on an occasional basis according to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke.
Compound this with the knowledge that 22 million American citizens work night shifts or swing shifts, which causes many disruptions with the body’s normal cycles in terms of sleep considerations.
So how you will you get a good night sleep??? Here are 101 ways….
http://www.sleepdisordersguide.com/blog/good-night-sleep-101-ways/

8:48 AM, March 24, 2007  
Blogger Ease-It-Out said...

To: Anonymous!
Hey Your Honary Southern Babstist Minister that have nothing to do, but go your Dog Gam Sneak-sermons you all.
Go to work you lazy old boy, earn your living & die as a true christian (not the mumble-dumble can't do nothing old boy0!
Shut up for now!

6:02 AM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger brook said...

This article gives me interesting information about men who are not working in America. This may be because of employment problem. Even though they not working but the are living with all the needs and satisfaction.

===========
Brook

diamond earrings

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