Friday, October 13, 2006

Let's Roll

Sometimes, fighting back may be the answer; it seems that a school in Burleson, Texas is teaching kids not to comply with a gunman's orders when it comes to school violence:

Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got - books, pencils, legs and arms.

"Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success," said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.
Hat tip: Instapundit and Joanne Jacobs.

Of course, there is no sure strategy to use when confronted with a mass murderer but denial and regressive behavior such as hiding under a desk do not appear to be the best option either. I am not the only psychologist to think this. In his book, Violence Risk and Threat Assessment, forensic psychologist J. Reid Meloy states:

I have worked several mass murder cases during both criminal and civil suits, and I have discovered something that has important implications for survival: the people who live through these horrible events are active and aggressive. They either run out of the building, or if cornered, they aggress against the perpretrator, and then run. People who are killed do not run or hide effectively: they usually choose obvious hiding places, like under a desk or table. As a psychologist, this behavior appears to be acutely regressive-like the child who hides in an obvious place, believing that if he closes his eyes and cannot see, he won't be seen.


My guess is that most experts will err on the side of caution and denial such as this:

Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said.


So, it is better to let children die while hiding under a table just so no one will later be blamed. Isn't that a little heartless?

Update: Well, the Burleson program has been halted, of course, too dangerous. So kids, just go back to hiding under those desks, that will really stop the violence.

73 Comments:

Anonymous John said...

Note the comment: Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Well Terry, cops haven't been real effective up until now in stopping these killings. The images of the cops standing around outside Columbine while the killings continued is still burned into memory. It's just common sense that he who fights back lives. Plain common sense.

5:20 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Martin L. Shoemaker said...

Here's an irony: when I viewed this page, the BlogAd was for shop.rosie.com, the sales outlet for anti-gun fanatic Rosie O'Donnell.

5:25 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger MEC2 said...

Passive compliance and inaction are what a typical pass-agg perpetrator wants - to cow the victims so he can exert his power. Best solution - do whatever you have to do to get away. Sneak, distract, fight, argue, outwit, outrun, outfight.

Those who do not are normally referred to as "victims".

MEC2

5:40 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Martin L. Shoemaker,

Yes, it is ironic--but at least it shows how unbiased my blog is--I'll take anyone's money.

5:44 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Pogo said...

The hide-and-hope-he-kills-someone-else approach is not only a proven failure at saving lives, it increases fear and trauma to the survivors. Those who still abide by such nonsense have no business being in charge of school safety.

To modify Instapundit's apt phrase, children should learn to survive as a pack, not suffer like a herd.

5:50 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Bitter Bitch said...

Helen,

I am also running the Rosie ad, though I'm putting the funds to good use: buying another gun. :)

5:51 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's mind-boggling to me that any sensible adult, much less a member of the "cognitive elite," would counsel anyone to remain passive in the face of violent thuggery. Do these chin-tugging fools somehow believe these murderous goons are instituting some sort of social contract by entering a schoolhouse armed to the teeth?

5:59 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Thomas said...

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said."

And that's precisely why most schools will NOT adopt this eminently sensible approach. A gunman comes and shoots ten people lying on the floor -- well, that's just an act of random violence. Couldn't be prevented. A gunman is rushed by students trained by their school to do so, and manages to kill only one of them, and there will be twenty underemployed plaintiff's attorneys panting to argue that it was the training that was responsible for the death -- because it can't be known for certain that the gunman had massacre in mind.

Proving to an average jury's satisfaction that the gunman would have killed someone anyway, in the face of a sympathetic plaintiff like a grieving mother, would be almost impossible.

$#$@ lawyers (said the lawyer).

6:04 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Dennis said...

I grew up in the little town of Edmond Oklahoma, and was in the Post Office the night before the incident that coined the term "Going Postal" occured. That guy killed 14 adults. I remember stories at the time of people who had hidden all over the building, in remote rooms and under tables, but the lunatic methodically found all of them and killed them. Running and/or attacking would seem to be the only intelligent option. Hiding doesn't seem to work.

6:16 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous dweeb said...

not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got - books, pencils, legs and arms.

Sorry, but it's irresponsible to teach INCOMPETENT resistance. Teach them tactical decision making, which does NOT mean a wild, flailing, unarmed frontal assault on someone with a gun.
There's nothing wrong with passive compliance if the situation indicates it will create an opportunity for EFFECTIVE resistance.

Teach them to size up their companions and the opposition, and know an appropriate role to take. If a gunman takes over a classroom with four varsity wrestlers and one asthmatic chess club president, then the former should know to watch for their opportunity and the latter should know to move away from them and create a distraction.

6:42 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Perhaps it is time for all of us to have our children read "The Nation of Cowards"?

http://www.gunowners.org/op9805.htm

Given the nature of our war and the nature of criminals these days expecting mercy is unrealistic. Time to take the fight to them.

I wrote a story outlining my confrontation of a stalker harrassing my wife over a 6 year period. The long and short of it was after I had cleared my backyard armed with my .45 I walked inside to see my girls making a fort and my son armed with his plastic sword and helmet ready to cover me...hehe.

The story is here if you need a laugh

6:46 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Julian Morrison said...

I wonder if this approach, broadly applied, might not effect a much broader cultural change. The attitude being trained into these kids is: when in danger, attack! He who cowers gets shot. What would it be like if the whole country thought that way? A much more spartan America, perhaps.

6:46 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger David said...

What is also interesting is how training students to be passive traumatizes them to begin with. Just this week the middle school my fiancee teaches at here in Dallas had a lockdown drill -- they even had the sound of gunshots on the intercom. My fiancee told me that even though the kids knew it was a drill that some of them were in a panic, almost in tears, and one even said "can I hide under your desk with you?" It seems that kids instinctively know this is not a good survival strategy. Our instincts tell us that if we aren't cornered, then flee, and if we are cornered, then fight like hell.

6:50 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Homer said...

Perhaps, as Julian Morrison said, above, it's high time we adopted the concept of aggressive self-protection not only in schools, but everywhere.

It will be an uphill battle because liberals will not like that concept. At all. If we can learn to take care of ourselves what do we need them for?

6:53 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

as much as I'm for this strategy, I agree with Thomas that it's headed for a crash as soon as after the first such incident the grieving parents a child hot while attacking will sue the pants off of the school, the district, the couches, the training company and everyone else they can get there hands on.

7:08 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Synova said...

Two things. The idea that telling young people to fight back will frighten them is wrong. What is frightening is being told that you're helpless. (And I disagree with the person who talked about threat assessment, the assuption must be made that an intruder with a gun *will* kill multiple students. Hoping for anything else would be irresponsible.)

Second, when I told my husband about the idea of teachers carrying concealed and generally told him that students should be taught to fight back agressively (really... I said just that) *he* said... they won't ever tell students to do that even if it's the best thing and the best chance to stop a mass murder because if they tell students to attack and even one student gets hurt they'll get sued.

I'm right, and unfortunately, so is he.

7:18 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Kevin Murphy said...

Well, there is also the possibility that parents of children killed while being forced to be passive will sue, claiming the district should have taught them aggressive methods.

There are cases in the last few years where the students DID take down the shooter and there were few if any casualties.

In short, you can be blamed for anything if it doesn't work.

7:20 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Mark L said...

After Columbine I got my sons together and told them what to do in a situation where someone had a gun. It was basically the Burleson Solution: fight back. I told them to get a buddy, tip over a table and ram it against the shooter, using the table for cover. Throw things at the shooter. Take the gun away, if they could and kill the shooter. Be decisive and be violent.

I based my advice on an incident that happened to me, when I was a senior. Another student stabbed me in an attempt to do a friend a favor. This was an upper middle class high school in a liberal college town (Ann Arbor, MI) in the 1970s. After getting stabbed several times, seeing that no one was going to help me (including a teacher that walked away when he saw the fight develop) I attacked my attacker with my bare hands. I was larger than him and was able to pin him on the floor. I proceeded to attempt to strangle him (I did not want him to be able to attack me if I passed out) while banging the back of his head against a concrete floor.

It took four other students to drag me off of him.

In the confusion -- once people realized I had been stabbed and were taking me down to the nurse's station -- they left the perpetrator in the school cafeteria where the fight took place. The school cop heard about it when I was at the dispensary and went to the cafeteria, with a camera, to take pictures of the scene. He thought the perp would be long gone. Instead he found the guy, covered with my blood, lying on the floor trying to get up. I had scrambled his brains enough that he had lost motor control.

The guy was convicted of assaulting me, and sent to prison for five years (sentenced to 2-1/2 to 10). He had a rap sheet as long as my arm. Why did he think he could get away with stabbing me in a crowded lunch room?

He was an identical twin. For five years he and his brother would rob liquor stores, gas stations and convenience stores in my home town with one robbing and the other at a party. If one was identified, they played a "good twin/bad twin" game that always yielded reasonable doubt at the trial -- until I decked one and they caught him with the physical evidence on him (literally caught red-handed.)

It was worth resisting just to take him out of circulation. His brother joined him in prison a year later, when he got caught robbing a clothing store and could not use the twin alibi.

7:22 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Bitter Bitch,

Yeah, that is putting the money to good use--think I'll take it to pay for more shooting lessons. BTW--you are right, Dave Kopel is hot.

7:31 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Maybe it's because I'm from West Texas but I think this is a typical West Texas response and, as the saying goes, Fort Worth is where the West begins.

8:07 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Stace said...

At the very least, maybe as word gets out about this training, any potental maniac who wants to execute a bunch of schoolgirls will target a different school district.

Also, should the architecture of schools be an issue? My son's highschool is all one story (except for the library), and all classrooms exit on exterior covered walkways. Here, it would be impossible for gunmen to corner a whole school, as they did at Columbine.

8:23 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Earth Girl said...

We teach young children to yell and scream and fight if someone tries to grab them. We now teach women of all ages to resist rapists, especially armed rapists, to increase chances of survival. But we won't teach school children to fight back. And I wonder what the policy is for teachers in that situation. Our schools are a nightmarish bureacracy and it is refreshing to learn of one school who is taking a common sense approach. May they never have to invoke these tactics.

8:34 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those of you worried about getting sued, the schools are getting sued anyway whenever there is an incident, regardless of what actions are taken. The point here is to save lives. We can deal with the lawyers later ;)

8:37 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger Joel said...

Being from Burleson, I would relish some lawyer trying to sue, his dead ass would be hanging off an I-35 overpass for the rest of the ambulance chasers to consider before following suit.

More realistically, the fact that a significant threat of school shootings is from students attending the school, the policy should provide a deterrent as all students know they will be opposed and not be able to pull a columbine style fish in a barrel shooting spree.

Furthermore, it honors our Scotch/Irish heritage embodied in the motto "Dont Tread on Me". And ignores the mothering government top down solutions that are antipathy to freedom, and ineffective to boot.

My only problem is that they have some bozo from the UK teaching the thing, I sure hope this guy is ex-SAS or black watch or something and not some desk jockey.

one final note, back in the eighties when I was attending high school, most trucks in the parking lot had high powered rifles in them either for the practical purpose of deer hunting after school, or for the aesthetic of not being the only pussy to not have a rifle in his rack. There were no school shootings.

The only violent incident (beyond the standard fist fights) we had in our highschool was some sad sack who didnt even have a car was flailing around with a machete, distraught after his girlfriend broke up with him, threatening to kill himself if she did not get back with him, needless to say, she didnt get back with him, and he figured that a machete was not a preferred tool for self termination.

8:49 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger RebeccaH said...

It's my instinct that a perpetrator would be startled and paralyzed in indecision by a mob of yelling, hitting, book-throwing students, long enough perhaps to be brought down. There's every chance one or two students might be shot, but the rest of them might escape with their lives. It's better than being executed on the floor under a desk.

8:51 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Ft. Worth Dinosaur said...

Are the public schools doing our children a service by teaching them that that passivity is the answer to all conflict? I don't think so.

Sometimes violence is the only reasonable response. You can't reason with an armed person who is irrational. The best you can hope for is to subdue them and prevent them from hurting themselves or others.

But we teach our children to avoid conflict at all cost. And I think that the fear that this engenders in them leaks out at the edges of our PC society all the time.

Here's an example:
I was recently invited by one of my twenty-something coworkers to view an Ultimate Fighting Champion (UFC)contest on TV.

UFC, is essentially a no holds barred fight between two men using boxing, martial arts, brawling, and any other means to subdue your opponent or knock him out. You can't bite, kick someone who is down, or punch them in the groin, but that about all that is not allowed.

One of the primary ways of winning a match is with a "submission hold" which will break a joint or bone if the opponent does not surrender by "tapping out".

My younger coworkers (I'm in my mid forties) seemed facinated with this event. Several said that they even train at local dojos for UFC-style fighting.

I grew up with violence. Fighting in my bad neighborhood, fighting in the Marine Corps, working as a bouncer to pay for college.

When I related some of my experiences to my associates at the UFC viewing, one of them looked at the floor and said "I've never been in a fight".

That's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. But clearly my friend felt that not knowing how to fight was a weakness.

It's as if they long to feel in control (illusionary as that may be), but are held back by a lifetime of conditioning to avoid conflict at all costs.

So the only way they can find to express it is through watching UFC and playing tough guy with each other at the gym.

9:02 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I teach my kids to hit, kick, fight, scream, etc. if threatened by predator or whomever. I tell them that if the predator gets you alone he will probably kill you any way. It is best to fight at the beginning when someone might be able to help you. Your chances for survival are much better.

It looks like the school district in Texas agrees with me.

11:02 PM, October 13, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

Personally, although I am armed almost all the time, the last thing in the world I want to do (athough I am prepared to do it)is end up is be in a fight using deadly force.

Everyone I know who is licensed to carry weapons is constantly aware of the tremendous responsibility it involves. It is something I would really rether not do; but if the bad thing ever happened, I would have a hard time forgiving myself for not being armed and ready after going through the training, the investigation of my personal life, and all of the other requirements the state requires before granting the privilege to private citizens.

11:44 PM, October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Pete said...

At Columbine, a police dispatcher told a teacher in the library, along with all of the students with her, to stay put until the police arrived. They did, even though they had a door to the outside right there in the library! There were 11 victims killed in the library. If they had fled, Klebold + Harris would only have killed 2 plus themselves.

1:02 AM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Dusty said...

The right of self-defense and the lethal use of force that derives from it doesn't come only with the purchase of a gun of some kind.

I think it would be a good if each classroom had a rack of baseball bats or better yet have them attached to the desk with a remote release button the teacher could push in an emergency. They could even have routine "Rush Drills" right after they finish their Fire Drills.

1:44 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger El Duderino said...

Joel, the motto of Scotland is Nemo Me Impune Lacessit, no one attacks me with impunity. Apt is it not?

3:22 AM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Kona Dave said...

All this talk about *not* fighting back I guess means what happened on Flight 93 didn't make any sense either.

5:15 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Helen, you really need to spend a LONG time studying practical and projective battlefield situations. This is an area you really shouldn't touch. You've seen the shadow of violence but you've never fetched the flame. I speak this as one who holds you in respect and with affection. I speak this because I hold you in respect and with affection.

5:50 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

And the funny thing is, I can't provide an accurate accountant who can detail my understanding of carnage. Not one. And as I am, by law, a semi-public figure (an out of work reporter, but still a reporter), this is rather remarkable, is it not.

Unless you are ready for the fight, do not provoke the fight, any of you. Left or right, I care little. The edge holds little appeal to those who must carry it.

You are, collectively, a lot of cowards, sound & fury, signing your own warrants.

What? Do you think you are invisible?

End this hoo-rah now. Do so or be ready to face federal prosecutors. All of you.

Violence?

Is it something we need?

Sometimes, yes. But it is best left in the hands of those who are most able to prosecute it justly. If you wish to enable this, join it.

And expect the responsibility and the consequences.

Reap the whirlwind, kids.

6:06 AM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Strouse, I don't understand: You think people should refuse to defend themselves, lest they face federal prosecution?

That makes no sense whatsoever. Am I missing something?

8:18 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Graham,

I am not sure what is up with you--there is a time for violence and a time to back down or manage in other ways if possible. Case in point: my prior post on women who are approached by men at bars. The concensus of many "feminists" to that post? Break the guys fingers, push him to the wall etc. My response was to try something else first--violence is not the best first response in that particular situation. That said, there are times when fighting back is proper response.

A mass murderer in a school is typically in a different psychological league than a groper at a bar. By the time someone picks up a gun or several and decides to commit suicide and shoot children at a school, the odds are high that he will carry out his act once he is on the premises. Remember, most of the time he has rehearsed the scene in his mind--he has a script of being in power and taking others down to release his feelings of frustration, anger and despair. So now you say what to the victims of his anger, do nothing? Let kids cower under a desk and hope for the best? This is your strategy? If they can get away--great, run...but what if children are cornered, do you advocate them standing there while being shot? Dying in passivity is better to you than fighting for your life? Not in my book.

8:19 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

I lead a group for children that have been sexually abused. One of the things we do is get out the giant teddy, the thing is 4 feet tall and weighs 90 lbs, and we have the children practice yelling "No" and kicking the bear where the balls would be.

It is wonderful to see these traumatized children start out saying these tiny little "no"s and kicking the bear gently in the leg, only to go to raising dust off the walls with a hearty yell and kicking the bear out of our hands.

Someone tried to perp one of our children after the group. Tried! She clawed and fought him. She was 9, he was 40. He was arrested by the claw marks.

A leader of a nearby Rape and Sexual Abuse center called me to complain that we were teaching kids to fight back. She said that she taught kids to run or submit if caught. I told her we taught the children to run, scream, and go for the testicles or eyes if cornered. She was appalled! I also told her we were training kids that would be survivors then thrivers, not trying to keep kids victims. Slowly, she came around.

I will be damned if I will ever tell a child to submit to rape. Tonight, my eldest and I will outline her school shooting strategy. Run first, pencil in the eye if you get caught.

Trey

9:59 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Mark K. Sprengel said...

Makes me wonder about how I dealt with a recent mugging attempt while walking home from work. At least 5 teenagers ran up behind me, and one struck me in the back of the head. I turned around and said what the f*! and words were exchanged and they backed off and walked the other way for awhile. They were quite a ways away but decided to try again. As they tried to surround me and tell me to empty my pockets, I kept moving to keep out of the middle of a pile while continuing to move towards an area visible from the main road. Hard to do with a small backpack on, so I eventually ditched that. The biggest one, as tall as me, tried some jabs to my face but not effective really as I was evading and blocking while moving to keep others from behind me. One kid was reaching into his jacket at one point, for what reason I dont know. End result, I managed to say disengaged and out of a pile up, got a minor scratch on my chin and apparently they have lousy taste in backpacks because everything was recovered.

Still, not very satisfying though as I used to train in a martial art, but that's been near 2+ years ago, so skills are rusty. I'm also still recovering from a very serious back injury from last Christmas, I can workout now but the type of mobility and speed to take on 5 or so people, not knowing if they have more than just their hands or feets is an unknown to me. I would hate to turn quickly and end up dropping to the ground because my sciatic nerve got pinched again. Heck, I dont even know yet if I could run at full speed right now with that.

But, just standing there and giving them what they wanted seemed a sure way to encourage even more aggression. Not that I worked that out in my head at the time. Pisses me off that walking to and from work is not a wise idea now. I like the exercise.

On a positive note, Indiana has a lifetime concealed carry permit option now :D

and to add a little levity, my direct supervisor being the wise ass that he is asked me how it felt to get beat up by a bunch of little kids. haha

10:11 AM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those who advocate passive compliance should be charged as accomplices to the crime. If there had been more active resistance to the hijackers on Sept. 11, 2001 far fewer lives would have been lost. We consider the passengers on Flight 93 to be heroes, because they resisted. They lost their lives, but saved many others. Had the passengers on the other flights resisted, the World Trade Center might still be standing.

Many of the anti-resistance advocates commenting on this topic simply demostrate, that we are slowly being sapped of our character by the attitude of "let the experts deal with it". We are being killed by experts. We defer to the "experts", what if they are wrong?

Someone here made a comment about school architecture. If you live in a warm climate, you can have schools whose classroom doors open to the outside. Those who live in colder climates do not have that luxury.

11:01 AM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

We're talking school children here. You cannot teach the average sub-eight year old tactical decision making, their frontal lobes are not fully developed yet. Aside from an open avenue of escape, a group attack, yelling and swinging anything and everything is the best approach for children. Unless you would preferr they lie down and take whatever is to happen.

I've spent over thirty years teaching and practicing combat with weapons of many natures; from sticks to knives to guns. A looong fight (note: not a macho chest-bounding exercise, a fight to kill) is twenty seconds and you had better be goddamn good if you attempt to make tactical decisions in a fight instead of reacting reflexively.

"But it is best left in the hands of those who are most able to prosecute it justly."
Yeah, and they'll come and clean up the mess of your body. Funny how they're not around when violence ensues, which is exactly when you need to survive. Worry about the law later, corpses don't care.

Once a person initiates violence, all holds are off. If you think Marquis of Queensberry should be followed, you will die on the street. The perp won't be using it.

12:20 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Friend of USA said...

I am totally for it, kids should be taught to fight back.

But I know fighting back is totally contrary to everything our more and more " liberal" western society wants us to do.

We are tought that it is wrong to fight back crime, we should instead be more understanding of criminals, and not punish them which would only make them more angry at us.

We are taught it is wrong to try to stop illegal people from entering illegally in our countries.

We are taught it is wrong to fight back against people who are imposing their culture on us and it is wrong to defend our culture ( like Muslims who want to impose little bit by little bit Sharia law on us; some Muslim taxi drivers will not take blind people because their seeing dog is " impure" or they will not take people that carry bottles of alcohol...they go to court to obtain prayer rooms et cetera...)

We are taught that it is wrong to fight back people who commit acts of terror against us, that we should instead try to understand what we did to them to make them that angry.

Our "liberal" western societies are telling us that fighting to protect what you are and what you have is either racist, intolerant, something-o-phobe or bad in some way.

A lot of people - most of them on the left and/or feminists - believe that passivity will rid the world of violence and war...FOOLS!

It is exactly this
" do not fight back " attitude that emboldened 19 men to drive airplanes into buildings on 9/11.

When a crazy man enters a building with the intent of shooting people, in most cases he ends up doing just that; killing people.
so people may as well fight back.

People on flight 93 fought back, yes I know the plane crashed anyway but at least their loved ones have something positive to hold on to.

Call it what you want, pride, optimism, but it gives people hope that next time people will fight back harder and the plane will not crash.

Otherwise we just feel like dumb helpless cows going to the slaughter house.

Is that what we want to teach our kids?

that they are helpless dumb cows going to the slaughter house when a crazy man shows up?

that they should just accept the fact that there is no hope when a bad situation arises?

12:27 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anjali said...

This is a good strategy, but I do have one worry: after the first shooting where the kids turn the shooter's head into tapioca with well-placed textbooks (and it's all modern textbooks are good for, frankly), what happens at the next one where the shooter goes in basically laying down suppressing fire?

2:03 PM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger TheNewGuy said...

I don't have any problem with kids resisting murder... I only hope they do so effectively.

I always thought that we should issue big cans of beef stew to airline passengers... everybody gets two. If somebody stands up and announces a hijacking, the passengers are free to pelt/beat him to death with those cans. I don't know too many people who could stand up to more than a few hits to the head/face.

All violence is not wrong.

2:21 PM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Kirk Parker said...

Mark K.,

"On a positive note, Indiana has a lifetime concealed carry permit option now"

So where was your concealed pistol when you needed it? It's all well and good that concealed-carry may provide some general societal benefits, but the individual still needs to be prepared for his individual circumstances...

3:27 PM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Mark K. Sprengel said...

I am not currently licensed. I couldnt carry for awhile due to back problems. Went shooting when my back was better, wasnt satisfied at my performance at the time. Before I could get back to target shooting on a regular basis I had a very serious back injury (last Christmas) as I recovered enough to carry and had the finances to get back to target shooting regularly, my license expired. Car problems have been continually getting in the way of my setting up an appointment to reapply. However, that will change within 2 weeks and if not, a friend has offered to give me a ride to do that if need be.

3:49 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Purple Avenger said...

Unless you are ready for the fight, do not provoke the fight

You twit, this whole thread is about when the fight comes uninvited to you.

The fight began when the perp walked through the front door.

4:25 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Friend of USA said...

The new guy,

I love your idea of big beef stew cans!

If 30 kids were to throw 60 cans at a man, there is a high probablity that he would either get knocked out, drop his weapon, or at least someone could rip the weapon off his hands while he is still dizzy and confuzed from the cans that hit him in the head.

I like your idea also because it turns something close to a stonning into a good thing, a usefull thing to save lives!

And if one can ends up in the wrong hands well it is only one can...

4:35 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous Friend of USA said...

Ok nad while twenty kids are throwing 40 cans at the guy 10 other kids could come from behind and hit him with all they have on the head.

There would be so much commotion and confusion, the guy would have a hard time shooting straight.

Zero casualty is not really a choice here, it is either you let the crazy guy shoot as many kids as he wants or you reduce the number by fighting back and create a generation of people who will stand to defend something.

We can teach our kids to act like helpless cows going to the slaughter house or we can teach them to fight back.

4:42 PM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger The Unknown Professor said...

Anjali:

It's possible that "in the next one someone will go in laying down suppressing fire." But I think it's just as likely that knowing that kids will fight back will set the bar high enough that it will discourage a lot of potential shooters. And those that were smart enough to do what you say would have succeeded anyway. So I don't see the risk.

And I AM teaching my kids to fight. My eldest son (8 yr old) tried tae kwon do last year but wasn't ready. This year we try again - he's extremely small for his age due to a couple of years of heavy chemotherapy (and yes, he's in remission), and very, very smart. Small smart kids get picked on.

And my 6 yr old daughter (bless her heart) already knows how to make and throw a proper fist and how to block a punch. I figure if she cripples the first boy friend, my work is largely done...

5:25 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous thatcher said...

I told my kids when they were little to fight and scream like hell if someone tried to force them into a car. We even practiced screaming and fighting because my daughter was especially shy. Once you get into the car, you are likely dead, so you might as well give him as much trouble as possible. Same thing with schools. If a guy comes into a school with a gun, chances are high he means to use it. You might as well turn the tables as much as possible.
My daughter went to a private school in a bad area. Two of the teachers were carrying guns. As far as I know, nobody figured out which two it was. The kids did alot of guessing but never even sawin a glimpse of a gun.

7:56 PM, October 14, 2006  
Anonymous cj said...

Well, this would take a sea change in school philosophy.

My children's elementary school recently instituted a 'structured recess' policy -- can't play red rover (some kids might not be called, mostly because of time constraints, not popularity issues); can only play soccer in groups of four, so everyone gets a chance to 'kick the ball'; two person 'duck, duck, goose' so no one's left out; etc., etc. The kids hate it -- all the fun has been sucked out of game playing.

Think they're going to teach these kids to storm an attacker? Not. Bloody. Likely.

9:14 PM, October 14, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

The Unknown Professor:

Try maybe Moo Duk Kwan, Kenpo or best would be one of the Kung Fu schools. Tae Kwan Do has a habit of overextension in their punches and kicks. Very bad for the joints.

Also check if the school is heavy into tournament. They tend to teach "to the test" instead of street-valid techniques.

9:42 AM, October 15, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Helen, I apologize for the my initial inconderate remarks. I rather undermine (or perhaps illustrate) the case that it's not wise to behave impulsively & emotionally in the initial stages of a conflict scenario.

Dweeb argues my point rather more effectively. I would never suggest that one should remain passive in the face of an armed aggressor.

I overeacted a bit to the tone of the initial post. It's just that suggesting to a bunch of 4th graders that frontal assault is the best way to deal with an unhinged postal worker armed with an AK-47 strikes me as a really, really bad idea.

One thing I know about combat is that plans and preparation pretty much disentegrate at the point of first contact with the enemy. I also know that most people have a hard time distinguishing between inaction and passivity. This can be very useful thing to remember when facing an enemy who has a vast advantage in material and tactical position. You're flanks are unmasked. The other guy has managed to position has greatest strength against your weakness.

That's the opening move in any school shooter scenario. He has surprise, initiative, some serious ordinance, control of the battlefield and a room full of underage hostages and their teacher, who is probably not an ex-Navy SEAL, staring down the business end of his piece.

I want to think on this some more before I wargame it further. What I should have done in the first place, really...

9:50 AM, October 15, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi Graham,

Yes, I understand your concern. I think one of the problems in our society is that most of us are not used to any type of violence at all and cannot fathom why someone would do something as horrific as pull a gun on a bunch of kids. Therefore, there is no script in place for what to do. Just stand there doing nothing, however, is not always the best solution, in fact, I doubt it is much of a solution in a mass murder situation. However, just as the murderer has a script, so should the kids, in my opinion. What are some options? What can you do? What might work? Just having something in mind is better than nothing. Each case is different. What might work in one situation might not in another, but you must be prepared to think about what to do before a crime like this occurs and I think this extends to kids. And rememember, the attacker is thinking about power, dominance and a climatic conclusion to his miserable life. What if the script is changed? What if he is surprised? Will this change the outcome to one more in favor of the victims? It might.

10:32 AM, October 15, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

Attackers usually attack a place where they perceive weakness. They have a rehearsed plan and the odds are they have not rehearsed in their own minds the their strategy in the event of an aggressive counter-attack.

Unfortunately in cases like these school attacks you have to resort to probabilities. I believe that an unbiased study would prove that every kid who complies with the demands of the perp (unless the demand is that they leave the premesis, as in the recent situations where the boys and teachers were compelled to leave)is very likely to be seriously injured or die.

7 girls who allow themselves to be tied up with plastic straps, handcuffs, etc., are most likely going to die. If 7 kids, regardless of their age, refuse to comply and instead attack the perp, some will probably be hurt, some killed. But it takes an awfully good marksman to place lethal shots in 7 moving targets in a short and highly dynamic period of time.

Anything that disrupts the perp's rehearsed plan will cause him to pause for at least a second or two in order to re-evaluate his strategy. Those few seconds can mean the difference between life and death for at least some of the victims.

In any individual case maybe the death or serious injury rate will drop only slightly; there needs to be some serious study on the odds of survival while submitting to a perp's demands as opposed to going on the offensive.

But I am convinced that for the population as a whole, the number of these incidents will decrease, and therefore the number of deaths, will decrease significantly if perps know that they will be attacked at the first sign of armed aggression.

Anyone who thinks a group of angry 6 year olds can't beat the crap out of a grown man, no matter how well armed, obviously has no kids or any experience with them.

2:35 AM, October 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the "always obey the person holding the gun" meme comes more from the dramatic needs of Hollywood than from the culture's general attitude towards violence.

We've all seen dozens of times James Bond permit himself to be tied up and dragged to some picturesque spot; if he just threw a chair and ran away at the first sight of a gun, how would we get to hear all about the villian's secret plan? Or we've seen a sweet Sunday school teacher single- handedly hold 5 burly gangsters at bay until back up arrives; if they banked on her poor aim and rushed her, how would we get our morally satisfying conclusion?

Given that most people's experience with gun violence comes entirely from the movies, it's not surprising you see this passivity in real life too.

5:35 AM, October 16, 2006  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Unless you are ready for the fight, do not provoke the fight, any of you. Left or right, I care little. The edge holds little appeal to those who must carry it.

You are, collectively, a lot of cowards, sound & fury, signing your own warrants.


Interesting way to appeal to our better judgment. Cowards? I use my real name to post and blog, it is well known where I live and I never have modified one opinion of mine to suit others.

In my life I have practiced Judo for 16 years, won numerous championships including the YMCA Nationals. While practicing Judo I was judged effective enough to help train the Jefferson Parish Police force in Self Defense. I taught them among other things how to disarm fools who thought having a gun gave them carte blanc. When I was doing this I was between 12 and 15 years old. Not a single one of them could defeat me hand to hand...simple fact not a boast. Children can be taught how to fight and how to defend themeselves from jerks, jihadists and maniacs and since it seems that those fools are only multiplying it is time we get on with it.

During my lifetime I have put a First Degree murderer back into Jail when he escaped. Chased through town till the police could catch up to us and then helped capture a drunk driver who had just hit a baby carriage killing the baby and injuring the mother. Stopped a man from administering a beating on his wife on the side of the road and finally ended a 6 year long stalking of my wife through the use of force and a calm appeal to his self preservation instincts. All of this is stated no doubt proudly because one should be proud of those actions but more importantly to make a point. Pack not herd as a rather famous blogger has been known to say. Coward...moi?

We have a moral duty to protect our lives and those around us from fools and maniacs. Calmly standing around waiting till we are better trained or a better situation presents itself is a recipe for dying in the circumstances discussed in Helen's post. If we do nothing in the face of a threat then we lose our morality. Morals mean a lot these day. Sorry for this longwinded post but we must know what is possible.

3:34 PM, October 16, 2006  
Blogger Pierre Legrand said...

Oh and just to finish the story I work in the Food & Beverage Industry. I was a mail runner when I put away the murderer. We are all a lot more powerful than we know.

3:36 PM, October 16, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

Pierre,

Good for you. But I'm not sure you're picking up what I'm putting down. I don't want to pick on you, mon frere. I really don't.

But I do want to say this:

"Statistically speaking, flying is still the safest way to travel."

I should wrap it in quotes. I might be paraphrasing. I'll just call my man at "the Planet" and ask him if I got it right & get back to you.

Ciao!

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