Monday, May 19, 2008

The Boston Globe: "Why aren't there more women in science and engineering? Controversial new research suggests: They just aren't interested" (Hat tip: Fred Ray).

I found this point interesting in the article:

Benbow and Lubinski also found something else intriguing: Women who are mathematically gifted are more likely than men to have strong verbal abilities as well; men who excel in math, by contrast, don't do nearly as well in verbal skills. As a result, the career choices for math-precocious women are wider than for their male counterparts. They can become scientists, but can succeed just as well as lawyers or teachers. With this range of choice, their data show, highly qualified women may opt out of certain technical or scientific jobs simply because they can.


So men who are skilled at math may have less flexibility to branch out and go into other areas that involve dealing with others. If women must be equal in terms of pursuing hard sciences, wouldn't it also be fair that men should have to be equal to women in terms of verbal skills so that they too, could have more job flexibility?

70 Comments:

Blogger Omnibus Driver said...

I know that a good deal of research has been done into girls having different learning styles than boys -- especially when it comes to math and science. As some schools are now experimenting with same sex classes for these subjects in order to focus on those different learning styles, I wonder if we'll see many more girls feel confident and competent in math and sciences, and pursing careers in those fields.

4:18 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Wayne said...

So, does this mean that Larry Summers can get his job back?

Wait, what am I thinking? This study, and the people involved in it will be hounded into obscurity.

4:27 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

ah but,... women must be given more money, to keep them in the pure maths field.

they need more women.. why not make a quota.. reduce the skills needed for women to do that work..

yes.. that will make it all better..

5:21 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Archivist said...

"Different" does not mean "discrimination" if "different" is the product of personal choice.

Recent studies also show that men skew far wider than women and are more prone to extreme behavior, good and bad -- e.g., more persons living on the street, more super geniuses. In the end it all evens out. Thank testosterone for that. So what?

One of the great canards of the radical gender feminist is in rejecting the notion that "equal" might be "different." That such a view bucks biology and millions of years of evolution is purposefully lost on them -- no wonder, given that their twisted agenda hinges on trying to shame men for being born male.

5:26 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Larry J said...

I taught high school math for a year a long time ago.* In my top two classes, the top students were girls. They did quite well.

Talented young women have a wide range of career choices. If most of them don't want to study engineering, math, or the sciences, you can't make them.

*I went to college after several years in the military. I found that my years as an enlisted man had made me used to poverty. However, I found I no longer enjoyed it. I left the classroom to become an Air Force officer.

6:21 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Larry J said...

I taught high school math for a year a long time ago.* In my top two classes, the top students were girls. They did quite well.

Talented young women have a wide range of career choices. If most of them don't want to study engineering, math, or the sciences, you can't make them.

*I went to college after several years in the military. I found that my years as an enlisted man had made me used to poverty. However, I found I no longer enjoyed it. I left the classroom to become an Air Force officer.

6:21 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger DEK46656 said...

“So men who are skilled at math may have less flexibility to branch out and go into other areas that involve dealing with others.”

Is it less flexibility to branch out or less capability to branch out? Any job should go to the most capable person that applies; if women (who excel at math) show that they have other skill needed for a job that men don’t, so what. Give the job to the most capable. However, there should be no discrimination in that job assignment (either way), if a man applies and shows that he is better, he should get it.

I would note that within most advanced fields that require a higher order of knowledge (math and science) the need to communicate is generally limited to advancing the field (“publish or die”), which generally comes to motivation and ambition, not communication skills. In fact those people (admittedly men) that are especially gifted (IQ, etc) have the tendency to be exactly the opposite when it comes to communication and interpersonal skills.

8:09 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger David said...

"within most advanced fields that require a higher order of knowledge (math and science) the need to communicate is generally limited to advancing the field"...I don't think this is necessarily true in product development engineering, which typically involves multiple engineers working on a project and the need for them to communicate with each other as well as with marketing people and sometimes with suppliers...and certainly not true at the engineering management level.

8:25 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Elusive Wapiti said...

Reading the article, I was left wondering what the raw numbers of mathematically talented women are relative to the men surveyed; i.e., how rare are these ueber-flexible women relative to mathematically talented but inflexible men?

A simple look at the IQ distributions of men and women would suggest that there are many more men than women in the mathematically gifted segment of the population.

Of the women that belong in that segment, some self-select away from careers in IT because of a lack of interest and other options open to them.

These two factors lead me to believe that the sex gap in IT is a result of a double-whammy: there are less mathematically talented women in the population as a whole than men and, of those that are gifted, some are attracted to fields other than IT because their talents leave more things open to them.

9:21 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Jeff said...

I'm in math. The NSF "fast tracks" research funding for women, who get can monies years earlier than men.

Got a vagina? Get a grant.

9:40 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

I can vouch for what Jeff says by what I see happening at a particular California school system. I assume there are more locations of that school in the state providing the same monies and opportunities for females. As a man, I don't like it. It doesn't seem fair. I wonder if society may miss a good one because of it. But as a dad with a very bright daughter who is great at math and working on a PhD in science, what can I say?

10:02 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Sloan said...

I am only certain of one thing, Dr. Helen, and that is that I've grown sick and weary of the whole sordid mess. I can't keep up with which sex is supposed to be better at what tasks, who's got the edge on this or that particular skill, which groups are underrepresented or overrepresented in whatever class of jobs...

The never-ending quest for absolute parity in every facet of existence is driving men and women apart, not bringing them together. My position? Encourage both boys and girls to do whatever the hell they want, and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm not angry, just tired. :-(

11:20 PM, May 19, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Sloan,

I feel the same way, I am making fun of a system that says that everyone must be 100% equal at everything. It encourages those with skills to give up and those without skills to be rewarded for not having them. Not a good way to have a productive or free society.

6:10 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

"It encourages those with skills to give up......."

I think it is intentional (duh). If no one knows a GD thing, they will have to depend on the government. And if the government is all liberal, well, there you go.

Someone posted on your blog, Dr., a while back, a statement made by Bill Buckley, Jr. sometime before his recent passing. "I would rather be ruled by the first 100 names in the phone book, than by the faculty of Harvard."

The left doesn't like the military, and weakens it when it is in office. If this country is going to head that way (left) even further than it is now, they need to re-think their position on our military. Flowers down the rifle barrels of soldiers only work on old TV commercials. And only if that army is your own. Nations that are known to be extreme left (socialist, communist) have had powerful armies. Flowers won't work there.

Today's liberals are but the brownshirts in early 30's Germany. As soon as their usefulness is done, they will be shoved aside, and the real purpose of extreme left thinking will surface. Oh yeah. It can happen here.

6:50 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger JL said...

Today's liberals are but the brownshirts in early 30's Germany. As soon as their usefulness is done, they will be shoved aside, and the real purpose of extreme left thinking will surface. Oh yeah. It can happen here. - br549



This sums it up very nicely. All the "useful idiots" described by Marx have no clue as to the world they are really creating. I'm sure quite a few really believe in their particular "cause". Hence the derison in Marx' reference to them.

The problem has now become that since liberalism fails when it is honestly presented, the powers that be have re-tooled the game so that when the coin is flipped you get tails with no chance at heads. McCain, Obama, Clinton...doesn't matter a bit who gets in there. The socialist state en route to world government is here because there is NO CHOICE. American sovereignty be damned.

Think about your own inner circle of republican friends and family...does a single one of them like McCain or his record if they have knowledge of it? Could any one of them tell you why they thought Ron Paul was "a lunatic", assuming they had even heard of him? McCain was annointed, because he presents no threat and no choice. I have never seen an instance of this in such a transparent fashion in my relatively short life.

The kids are now so dumbed down they won't fight it in the coming generations. The boys are drugged in school if they display overly male traits fueled by testerone (commonly called ADD). It has been a long time coming, but we are reaching the point where things are beginning to accelerate.

I recall reading somewhere that it takes a bamboo tree 4 years of germination in moist soil before it starts to grow. In the 5th year it can grow up to 84 feet.

I think we are entering the "5th year".

On a lighter note, the Dave Johnston list was funny :D

7:46 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger MikeT said...

The superficial moves to get women into science and engineering aren't going to help them in the long run. If they aren't interested in it on their own, they are not going to succeed except as a manager that is technically incompetent.

Women with these degrees can often advance pretty quickly into management. A lot of companies I know around the DC area will fast track a woman into a position of prominence in management if she has any sort of technical degree.

There would be more equality if the technical tracks at many companies allowed a man to move up in his field without having to go into management.

9:14 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

When was the last time you saw a female at any age reading 'Science Digest' magazine or any publication that dealt with any thing mechanical or scientific or even dealt with the real world?

I have a friend that for years will go out on a date with women & will talk about computers & all kinds of techinical stuff & cars & then wonders why they'll never go out with him again. He just doesn't get it.

It's really, really simple- all women care about are romantic relationships- that's it. (& babies) Period. Want a woman's attention? Ask her a question involving 'romance,' & you will get her 100% undivided attention.

And one other thing, I've been working here in the REAL world for the last 20 years with women in the legal profession (forget the la-la land of college & those of you on here who OBVIOUSLY do not work) & I can tell you women are absolutely NOT superior in verbal skills/communication. Women are excessive talkers- calling women better are communication is like calling a gas guzzling Cadillac 'better at using gas!' (HA)
The only reason women speak is to express their 'feelings' (and not very well either) and just to hear the sound of their own voice because they are so completely self-obsessed, selfish, and self-centered. It's just 'bla bla bla bla (a little bit of important information) & then back to 'bla bla bla' but then you miss the important imformation because you've gone to sleep with all of the mindless blathering about nothing. Women are HORRIBLE communicators. So women suck at EVERYTHING.

11:04 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger john said...

I think the Globe article misses a key point. The women who pursue engineering have a passion for it. Unlike some males who have a knack, are an engineer, but are bored to tears with it.

My sister-in-law works for Hughes Aerospace as a covering specialist on space probes. She can discuss for hours the materials and their applications. She does it all from scratch. She has the passion.

11:53 AM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

br549 --

Someone posted on your blog, Dr., a while back, a statement made by Bill Buckley, Jr. sometime before his recent passing.

I loved the unintended (I think) humor. It reminded me of when I took my mom out to see the movie The Raven. As we watched the opening credits, she leaned in and whispered "This must have been made before Peter Lorre died."


reality#### --

When was the last time you saw a female at any age reading 'Science Digest' magazine or any publication that dealt with any thing mechanical or scientific or even dealt with the real world?

Yesterday. My daughter. New Scientist. We discussed an article on vestigial organs.

12:04 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Larry J said...

I think the Globe article misses a key point. The women who pursue engineering have a passion for it. Unlike some males who have a knack, are an engineer, but are bored to tears with it.

My sister-in-law works for Hughes Aerospace as a covering specialist on space probes. She can discuss for hours the materials and their applications. She does it all from scratch. She has the passion.


Passion for a subject is vital. It's what makes someone spend the extra hours studying and learning instead of partying. For example, those students who spend all hours advancing their programming skills will be the best at their job because of their passion. The same is true for any subject.

I've heard too many young people who want to become doctors or lawyers because those careers can make a lot of money. That's exactly the wrong reason to go after a profession. Instead, you should have passion for the subject. Without that passion, you'll just end up with more people who graduate at the bottom of their class. We already have too many poor doctors and way too many bad lawyers.

12:18 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Crazy Dog Lady said...

I grew up in the 70's & 80's, at that time girls were not encourged to persue math and technical subjects.

That could be a reason why you don't see a lot of women in their 30's and 40's in technical fields.

I got into Engineering accidentally. Worked at a job that assisted Engineers and thought that it was totally cool, went back to school for my Manufacturing Engineering Degree and am now persuing a Masters in Quality.

I work in the automotive field in Automotive Manufacturing plants. Talk about a field dominated by men, I haven't worked with a women from a technical aspect in 10 years.

I was the only female in all my classes for Engineering and Quality at school too. I have to tell you I don't mind it, men are much more fun and easier to work with but some women are intimidated by that. That could be part of the reason not a lot of women persue Engineering either, the lack of other women to work with.

12:30 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger MikeT said...

I was the only female in all my classes for Engineering and Quality at school too. I have to tell you I don't mind it, men are much more fun and easier to work with but some women are intimidated by that. That could be part of the reason not a lot of women persue Engineering either, the lack of other women to work with.

For most competent women, the lack of women is a feature of the job, not a problem. YMMV, but the average intelligent woman I've met who works in a field that requires real expertise and skill hates working for and sometimes even with other women. My wife has passed over software engineering jobs just because the manager was a woman.

12:39 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Thanks crazy dog lady. Many of us men think we are fun and easier to work with than women, too.

I think it is great you are in engineering and involved in automobile manufacturing. In many things, women just have "the touch" that men can't grasp to involve in a design, but sure can comfortably benefit from it when it is incorporated into said design.

Er, uh..... unless you were one of the female engineers who designed the Ford Windstar. Nothing personal if so, but God, what a piece of junk that is.

12:58 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"When was the last time you saw a female at any age reading 'Science Digest' magazine or any publication that dealt with any thing mechanical or scientific or even dealt with the real world?

Yesterday. My daughter. New Scientist. We discussed an article on vestigial organs"

Don't worry, she'll grow out of that soon no matter what you say or do or whether you encourage her or not. How do I know this? I have a daughter too. She's 23. And it's not just my daughter- this goes for 98% of ALL females. You obvioulsy still have a looooong way to go in learning about reality, the world, and how humans behave. You're obviously not very bright, but don't worry, you'll get there in few years.:)

1:04 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger David said...

larryj..."I've heard too many young people who want to become doctors or lawyers because those careers can make a lot of money"...also, these careers are among the few that are regularly portrayed on TV, albeit usually in misleading ways.

A lot of kids are in serious need of solid information about various careers and what they are really like. They're certainly not likely to get it from their highschools or colleges.

1:06 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Another reason women are not attracted to the sciences is because of the type of men who work in these fields- in their words- 'nerds' with pocket protectors. Have you ever seen an attractive woman hug an engineer? It is the most pathetically patronizing thing you have ever witnessed. The little 'pat' on the back and the sneer like they are going to vomit.

And let's face it, modern feminism may have been around for the last 40 years, but another 400 years could go by & the no. 1 reason a (heterosexual) woman goes to college anyway is to meet a guy. (Hopefully a future doctor, lawyer, etc.)

The flaming elephant in the room is the fact that women have been given every possible opportunity & they still prefer to do the same old same old. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Sorry, but that's reality.

Anyone who believes that feminism has been a 'success' is delusional, a loser, & someone who has no corresponding intelligence to the world in which they live. All women have done is lowered standards & made so many professions a joke anyway. Let's hope TO GOD they don't get involved in the sciences.

1:19 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"My wife has passed over software engineering jobs just because the manager was a woman."

Here's a good place to start understanding the real truth
about women in ANY profession & touches on why women steer away from technical fields in the beginning. This is a great read:
http://womenintheworkplacetoday.blogspot.com/

1:31 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Sassenach said...

RE men being easier to work with: I spent twenty years on active duty and never had a problem working in a predominately male environment. Now that I'm back in the civilian world, I'm finding that it's frequently difficult for me to fit in with groups that are largely populated by women. Oddly enough, I get along best with women in their sixties and older.

Perhaps it's not so much a bright line between male/female as it is a matter of degree. Women (and men, for that matter) who are farther over on the scale of "feminine" behavior and interests don't excel in masculine-oriented environments. I've known many women who are successful and competent in technically-oriented career paths -- but can't recall any who were hyper-feminine.

As for women reading technical and scientific pubs -- well, I could tell you about the discussion a female colleague and I had about IT issues last week...or I could tell you about the intense preparation my teenage daughter made for the kidding of her goat herd (with subsequent immersion in the real world of amniotic fluid, blood, and other interesting biological products), or I could describe the work I did in predictive modeling for drug smuggling 20 years ago.

1:32 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Larry J said...

A lot of kids are in serious need of solid information about various careers and what they are really like. They're certainly not likely to get it from their highschools or colleges.

I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, not everyone wants or needs to go to college to get a good job. Unfortunately, all high school teachers, administrators, and counselors are college graduates. Unless they have a close family member who is successfully employed and isn't a college graduate, they simply don't know any other path to success other than college.

YMMV, but the average intelligent woman I've met who works in a field that requires real expertise and skill hates working for and sometimes even with other women. My wife has passed over software engineering jobs just because the manager was a woman.

My wife is a nurse, a heavily female-dominated profession (although the number of male nurses is slowing increasing, including my youngest son). She has told me many times that she'd rather work with men than with women. She believes women are just too petty and argumentative.

1:55 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Sassenach,

"As for women reading technical and scientific pubs -- well, I could tell you about the discussion a female colleague and I had about IT issues last week...or I could tell you about the intense preparation my teenage daughter made for the kidding of her goat herd (with subsequent immersion in the real world of amniotic fluid, blood, and other interesting biological products), or I could describe the work I did in predictive modeling for drug smuggling 20 years ago."

Sorry, everyone, I needed to more specific- I was referring to real, mentally healthy women, not lesbians or neo-lesbians.

In addition, I've found in my experience over the last two decades that women have a tendency to *ahem* 'exaggerate' anything they tell you about what they 'do.' In other words, most women are more or less.. well, let's face it.. frauds. There is nothing genuine about women at all-everything is based on appearance with virtually no substance.

1:57 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger halojones-fan said...

Hey people: Reality2008 is a troll. And what do we do with trolls? That's right--we DON'T FEED THEM.

*****

Dr Helen: I'm glad you highlighted that passage, because it struck me as a confirmation of the Althouse Principle. To wit: In any study of gender differences that finds actual difference, it will always find that women are superior.

And there it is in this article. After some initial fumfering about, we get to the core finding: Women are just so darn smart and capable that they can do ANYTHING, unlike those dumb stinky uncommunicative MEN who have to settle for jobs as rocket scientists and computer programmers and chemical engineers.

2:58 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Christy said...

Dr. Helen, I'm a nuclear engineer, have had these discussions with other technically accomplished women for the past 30 years, and still don't know the answers. Mostly it's just hard to understand why many of our other female friends are so math-phobic.

One thing I do know is that engineers and hard science majors typically spend a hell of a lot more time studying than liberal arts majors of the same smarts. Could it be that girls, more social to start with, have to be more passionate and more driven than boys to actually make that choice?

4:12 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

christy, all my daughter has been doing for 17 years now is studying day and night. She has more drive than anyone I have ever met - any age, any gender.

She will make a great scientist. Incredible intelligence, but not enough sense to come in out of the rain. She has a mountain of "math jokes" she cackles like crazy over when she tells them. But it is a rare individual who understands the jokes.

She is a beautiful young lady, and God do I love her so.

4:57 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

reality#### --

Don't worry, she'll grow out of that soon no matter what you say or do or whether you encourage her or not.

She's 32 and a high school instructor. She might help you with your spelling and grammar.


halojones-fan --

Hey people: Reality2008 is a troll. And what do we do with trolls? That's right--we DON'T FEED THEM.

Excuse me, but you don't really think people don't understand what it is do you? I'll poke sticks at whatever obnoxious animals I want, thank you.

5:08 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Granny J said...

Let me see -- it was almost 60 years ago that I (a female) gave up my original plan to become a chemist. Not because I worried about sexism. It was because, first off, I was lazy; I was bright and used to coasting through school. Secondly, I discovered in college physics class that, though mathematically I could run circles around all the guys in the class, they grew up with hands on experience with manipulating the physical world. Farm boys and later the Gasoline Alley guys grew up with a knowledge of the internal combustion engine -- and many peripheral matters of physics -- that one does not get out of a book. I might have been better off if my Dad had not been a CPA, who did not really get his hands oily. On the other hand, had IT been near its prime, I might well have chosen it instead of journalism. My daughter did, and she worked in both fields before getting her degree in math at 32.

5:24 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"She's 32 and a high school instructor."

Well, you know that they say- if you can't do it- teach it! Teaching is not DOING.

You're just not getting it are you? No matter what kind of idiot jumping from one foot to the other you do, or coming up with some exception or goofy curve ball, you can't change the facts. 98% of all women simply do not have the mental capacity for science. That part of their brain is just simply not there. Unless you are male, you will NEVER understand it.

5:39 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

halojones-fan,

If a 'troll' is someone who disagrees with your warped world view that women are just SO INTELLIGENT that they can do whatever they want, but it always just SO HAPPENS that they do not choose science, (you have all the intellectual integrity of a used car salesman- HA- you're a JOKE if you really believe that) then you will find that 95% of all MEN disagree with you & therefore according to your defintion, we are ALL trolls.

Well, we 'trolls' created the computer you are typing on, invented the car you drive, the toilet you relieve yourself on, and the house you live in. As a woman, you have no corresponding intelligence to the world in which you live, and are incapable of even comprehending the male inventive mind. A drunken redneck in trailer house even has more inventive ideas you ever will.

Women are the masters of illusion- deception- deceit- the world of LIES. Men are the masters of REALITY.

Congradulations, you actually LEARNED some TRUTH today!

5:52 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

I had no idea wi-fi could permeate rubber walls.

6:38 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Read this, this will help to shed even more light on the problem with women and their lack of motivation:
http://doittodayorelse.blogspot.com/

8:36 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Joe said...

These discussions often get a little to misogynistic for me. Yeah, I've had two female bosses and both were bitches. However, they didn't even come close to how horrible my worse male bosses were.

During my career as a software engineer I've worked with several women who were simply wonderful. I would love to work with many more such ladies. One of my coworkers right now is excellent--a math major turned computer programmer. I'd take her over most the guys I've worked with and not just because she has the most marvelous ass on the planet earth (though that helps, especially since my team lead and I are the very epitome of middle-aged geeks.)

9:11 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Christy said...

A new priest had arrived at the parish and was well recieved by all but a couple of retired gents. She tried everything but just couldn't seem to make any connection to these two parishners. Then one day she suggested they spend a lazy Monday out on the lake fishing. So they loaded up the boat and rowed out to the middle of the lake only to discover they had left the bait back at the dock. With a heavy sigh they start to turn the boat around when the priest says "No, no. Let me do it. You guys wait here. I'll be right back."

She stands up, steps off the boat, and walks back to the dock. One old coot turns to the other and says, "See, I told you she couldn't swim."

9:22 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

reality### --

You're just not getting it are you?

Of course I do. You're simply a woman hating imbecile. Hmm. Down to 98% from "ALL". Must be so when your own daughter reads your writing, she thinks you love her.

Mm, by way, anyone can create their own 'blogs' to support their rants.

Ya poke 'em wit sticks, they hiss and smash their faces on the bars. Fun.

9:26 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger H. said...

I am a 30 year old woman who has always preferred the company of men. They're, in general, more straightforward, easier to understand, less petty and have tended to have more interests in common with me. (It doesn't hurt that I have a fondness for crude jokes, and am unperturbed by belching, etc.)

I don't mind working with one or two women, but women in larger groups have tended to leave me feeling like I don't quite belong. (It is only now that I am a mother that I finally have something to talk to other women about.)

So, of course, I dove into the world of elementary education, made up almost entirely of women. It was not a happy choice. I lasted 2 years before running away screaming, longing to find a job where I could work with THINGS instead of needy people (I'm referring to large numbers of small children, of both sexes - although the little girls were a lot more draining to deal with than the little boys).

Somewhat off topic, but my preference for the company of men extends to my offspring. When I was pregnant people would ask me if I wanted a boy or a girl, and were usually somewhat surprised when I immediately said I wanted a boy. I'd like to have multiple sons. While I certainly wouldn't object to a daughter, I would be much more uneasy about raising one than I am about raising boys. Why? Take a look at the current state of women's fashion. That says it all.

9:54 PM, May 20, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"Of course I do. You're simply a woman hating imbecile."

I guess you aren't paying attention. This thread isn't about me, it's about women and why they do not choose technical fields. You've just illustrated yet another reason why. Women simply do not have the focus for the world of science. Women 'personalize' far too much-you simply cannot get past people's own personal lives. If Einstein were alive today and giving a question/answer forum on his theories, most of the women would be asking him about his marriage (HA).


"Hmm. Down to 98% from "ALL". Must be so when your own daughter reads your writing, she thinks you love her."

Actually she knows I loves her. She hates women who try to act like men like you even more than I do!

"Mm, by way, anyone can create their own 'blogs' to support their rants."

Hmm, and let me guess, you haven't created your own blog yourself because you haven't 'chosen' to... in other words you're LAZY. I'll bet you're GROSS FAT too, aren't you? How's THAT for 'personalizing?'

If you're going to dish it out, you've got to be MAN enough to take it. You want to be a man, right? Well, I'm teaching you.

5:58 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

reality#### --

This thread isn't about me,

Everything you write is about you.

because you haven't 'chosen' to

Correct. My writing takes other forms and consumes the time I would spend on a blog. Blog commentary is coffee-cup stuff for me. Like poking nasty animals with sticks.

Well, I'm teaching you.

Uh, no. First you would have to understand what it is like to be one.

7:10 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

If an individual has the inclination and the drive to be a scientist, an engineer, a CPA, or whatever, then by all means they should be able to pursue their dream. If one is in competition with another, or group of others, for a position with a company in need of a skill set, the best person for that position should be the one chosen to fill that position. The organization looking to have that position filled should be able to make the choice as to who is the best one for the job. If they make the right choice, the company will benefit. If the wrong choice is made, the company will suffer. The company will have to rectify the situation, or live with its choice. If the government makes that choice for the company, and the individual is a bad choice, the company has to live with it or pay the penalty. It loses either way. There are wrong choices with corner offices and a secretary (firewal) outside their office, redirecting phone calls to the right place. Only the government can afford that, they just raise my taxes to cover it. Private industry cannot afford that. The competition also involves having the best product and / or services for the better price. And yeah, this isn't news, much less rocket science.

Without government involvement, those with the right skills have at times been overlooked for stupid reasons. With government involvement, many not quite up to the task are given the job over people much better suited for the position. It's a quota, no matter what anyone may dress it in. Society will forever be the loser.

I want an deserve the best I can afford. Whether it is a plumber, automobile mechanic, brain surgeon, or research scientist - any product, any service. The deal is I pay the price they ask, they deliver the quality, skill and ability the price demands. How that trade is delivered matters not as far as color, gender, age, quota are concerned. Money is green regardless of the palm it is in.

No matter who made it, if the coffee sucks, I'm not going to put it in my Bunn machine and brew it. Why should I have to?

7:27 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger Larry J said...

Somewhat off topic, but my preference for the company of men extends to my offspring. When I was pregnant people would ask me if I wanted a boy or a girl, and were usually somewhat surprised when I immediately said I wanted a boy. I'd like to have multiple sons. While I certainly wouldn't object to a daughter, I would be much more uneasy about raising one than I am about raising boys. Why? Take a look at the current state of women's fashion. That says it all.

We recently learned that our wonderful daughter-in-law is pregnant with her second child. When asked, she says she hopes it's another boy. She grew up with 2 sisters and no brothers. Heidi said that dealing with girls is "too much drama." Of course, if she has a daughter, she'll love her completely. She'd just rather have another son. Time will tell.

Over my career, I've had a few female bosses. I never had any problems with any of them. I've had more male bosses that ran the range from horrible to terrific. People differ. You mileage may vary.

8:31 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Everything you write is about you.

because you haven't 'chosen' to

Correct. My writing takes other forms and consumes the time I would spend on a blog. Blog commentary is coffee-cup stuff for me. Like poking nasty animals with sticks."

With such dull, unoriginal & unimaginative comebacks, I'm sure they're real page turners. (People only want to read something that is called 'interesting' - look it up).

"Well, I'm teaching you.

Uh, no. First you would have to understand what it is like to be one."

Hm, noticed you didn't have any dull, listless comeback in regards to your obesity. I knew it- your attitude reeks of it.

8:56 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Wi-fi wave length needs to be adjusted so it is not able to permeate rubber walls.

11:22 AM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Another problem is that of expectations. In my 45 years on this planet, I have found that women are only attracted to the 'fruits' of success, with liitle or no interest in the actual work or passion that goes into that success, regardless of the field. I have never heard women expressing their passion for a field of interest- they only go and on about 'titles.' Titles are all that matter to women- the only reason a woman would want to go into the sciences is just so she can go, 'look at me- look at me' like a four year old. It is miserably, horribly pathetic.

In all the years I was working on songwriting, for example, all I ever heard from every female I knew or met, (including my mother & I've always had a good paying standard job, mind you) was, "you need to grow up.. you're never going to succeed... it hopeless & you're hopeless- you're a fool." (except for my daughter- who I raised to be a real person).

Now that I'm having all of this success with my songs, all of the sudden, women are coming out of the woodwork- including all of these women in my extended family who told me I was a loser and a fool for all of those years.

So to succeed at anything, you have to completely shut out what women say, because the road to success is IN SPITE of them. Women only have critical thinking- no creativity or inventiveness- they only tear everyone and everything down around them and cannot conceive of anything that does not already exist. Everything has to be 'approved' by some 'authority' or it has no value to them. Women have no joy. I've spent many years around women & their attitude makes ME feel like MY soul has died.

I know what you're thinking-"well, then telling a female she can't succeed at science is going to guarantee she doesn't succeed- she needs the CONFIDENCE to do it." But this is at the heart of the problem with women in today's society as well- they all believe that ALL you need is self confidence and that's IT. This is also why women are so dumbed down today as well as completely obnoxious with zero redeeming value AT ALL. Respect is something you earn, not demand. All the women today have been brainwashed & are in desperate need of ALOT of psych help, social skills, and a real education- not just a load of feminist propaganda.

Look at the young women around you-full of 'self confidence' and a grossly distorted, false sense of superiorty and THAT'S IT- nothing else. And that bloated ego becomes ANTI-productive- detrimental to becoming a better person or achieving anything. Women have TOO much self confidence & it does nothing but hurt them.

This why women will TEAR at your self confidence, because this is all they believe in- actual interest & hard work? Hey, that's for LOSERS in the female handbook. The female mindset is all about 'something for nothing' i.e. an extention of that 1980's 'appearance is everything' mode of thinking.

But science and invention doesn't work like that. Hard reality and the rules of nature & the laws of science cannot be manipulated the same way men can be with sex and are not governed by special government entitlement handouts to women. It's all internal- not external. To say that someone needs to be 'given an opportunity' to invent something is retarded. All of the great inventors and creative minds were self motivators and didn't give a damn about appearances.

The Wright Bros. self taught themselves physics in a dirty shed, & you know & I know that there were women around them that just looked at them and went, "what a couple of LOSERS! That shed is so ugly and who do they think they ARE? What a couple of idiots! What are they doing in that shed all day? What are they... FAGS?!?"

Women want everything ready made, handed to them, perfect & ready to go & while they contribute nothing, they demand the most.

It's really very simple; men produce... women CONSUME.

12:34 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

reality#### --

It wasn't a comeback, it was an answer. Perhaps that escapes you because you focus so much on your, um, wit.

I knew it...

No, you presumed. And, you presumed wrong.

You should learn to discern a little better between 'sharp' and 'psychotic'. The two are not synonymous, despite your view.

1:11 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"It wasn't a comeback, it was an answer. Perhaps that escapes you because you focus so much on your, um, wit.

I knew it...

No, you presumed. And, you presumed wrong.

You should learn to discern a little better between 'sharp' and 'psychotic'. The two are not synonymous, despite your view."

...and on & on & on & on like a 13-year-old girl. You see everyone, this the psychological stage women never grow out of- like the movie 'Mean Girls.' Like a little yap dog, she could do this 24/7 for the next 20 years- but then that really isn't the point is it? It's the fact she CHOOOSES to do this. All of her energy goes into this type of thinking, so don't hold your breath waiting for a bestseller coming from Oligonicella the Walrus anytime soon or anything of any significance EVER. (HA)

1:31 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

so don't hold your breath waiting for a bestseller coming from Oligonicella the Walrus anytime soon or anything of any significance EVER. (HA)

This line is really funny, but I was trying to eat my lunch!

2:21 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

Look, Feminism was a disaster & nothing more than a goofy fad from the 1960's- how outdated can you get? What are you going to do- smoke weed, wear beads and lay around in the park all day too?

Give it UP, already, Jeez. Don't you people know when to quit? Women have done NOTHING. Women just diluted the workplace and lowered the standards for everything. And Hillary- she's a lunatic & a loser who needs to be locked up. Get over it and get A LIFE.

Feminism and post-feminist ideologies are NOT in a woman's best interest, and we all know women only care about themselves- so at LEAST be selfish & at least look out for your own best interests. A good place to start getting yourself up to speed and educated about all of the lies of Feminism & the government sponsored destruction of the family & the damage it has done to you as a woman, read:

The Politically Incorrect Guide
to Women, Sex and Feminism By Carrie Lukas

"The latest in the New York Times bestselling series!
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Women, Sex and Feminism is the perfect antidote to the
lies told in boardrooms, locker rooms, and universities that are brainwashing young women every day."
http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Women-Feminism/dp/1596980036

2:22 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

Feminism is tied in with liberalism.
Feminism has been brainwashed into believing they are one and the same with liberalism. Too bad. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Feminism is not about being lesbian, or liberal. It has been hi-jacked.
Being lesbian is about being here, being queer, and telling the rest of us to get used to it. It is about being political. It's not even about being gay.

I saw a blurb on the net the other day where a speech - anti lesbian I guess, I never heard the speech so I can't tell - was being given at a college campus. The we're here, we're queer crowd came in the windows like goons - like brownshirts - totally interrupting things and closing it down. No one touched them, the campus police did not remove them. They ran free. If gay men would have tried that, it would have ended badly for them. Much of the crowd was men.

If the stunt would have been tried in say, China, or North Korea, even today's Russia, it would have ended badly for them. Is it rocket science to guess what would have happened in an Islamic nation in the middle east or Africa?

I have no idea what they were on about. I submit they don't either.

7:31 PM, May 21, 2008  
Blogger Catherine said...

I love studies like this because they back up my experience. Yeah, I know, anecdotes don't prove general trends, but doesn't it say something when a girl with a B.S. in Math from a family with a decided talent for math and science decides after one year in IT that she really doesn't like programming 8 hours a day enough to keep doing it and heads off to law school?

11:16 AM, May 22, 2008  
Blogger Christy said...

Forget the male/female ratios. What is more interesting to me is the ratio of foreign nationals/ American students in engineering disciplines.

10:11 PM, May 22, 2008  
Blogger reality2008 said...

"...but doesn't it say something when a girl with a B.S. in Math from a family with a decided talent for math and science decides after one year in IT that she really doesn't like programming 8 hours a day enough to keep doing it and heads off to law school?"

Ha-ha, yea, it says, "I'm a scatter brain who cannot focus enough in my life on one thing and become the best at it & then after I go to work for a law firm, I'll just quit after a year and then do nothing for the rest of my life."

12:03 AM, May 23, 2008  
Blogger Crazy Dog Lady said...

I think girls not going towards technical fields might also have something to do with their parents too.

My father made sure we could change our own oil and cut the lawn as well as do laundry and wash the dishes.

I helped him work on the cars and I know what a phelps is. It was ingrained into me from a young age that getting dirty and working on things wasn't a boy/girl thing.

I think my father was the one that started me on a track to becoming an Engineer, I was "scared" to get my hands dirty and I loved being able to fix things.

10:15 AM, May 23, 2008  
Blogger Crazy Dog Lady said...

Ok ,that should be wasn't "scared" to get my hands dirty.

10:16 AM, May 23, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

crazy dog lady, I'd love to hear your accent. Because I'm sure it's been spoken to and by you many times, but you may have never seen it written. It's "phillips".

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9:59 PM, April 21, 2009  
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5:53 AM, June 08, 2009  

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