Sunday, July 27, 2008

Church Shooting in Knoxville

A man in Knoxville opened fire on a Unitarian Church this morning. Michael Silence at the Knoxville News-Sentinel has the details.

61 Comments:

Blogger TMink said...

I pray that this is not some spreading reactionary violence in the Christian communities.

Trey

7:00 PM, July 27, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

I doubt that this is "spreading reactionary violence." This church is well established and widely accepted in the community. Back in 1968, I dated a girl who went to the church. A previous pastor of the church performed my wedding ceremony.

I'm guessing we have witnessed the actions of a whacko.

7:36 PM, July 27, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Of course he was a whacko. Kinda goes with the territory of deciding you need to off people who are different.

Fry him just the same.

10:20 PM, July 27, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Turns out this hit close to home for me. Two of my grandchildren were amongst the children at the church at the time.

I wasn't sure if my daughter was a member of this church or a different Unitarian church as she has moved to different churches. Fortunately no harm to my family members.

Word from my mother is that one of the wounded is the mother of the girl I dated 40 years ago. I hope she is OK.

10:39 PM, July 27, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Turns out my mother didn't have the story exactly straight. My son-in-law and one grandson were present at the time and the mother of the girl I dated wasn't shot.

Reading the reports in the Knoxville News-Sentinel website (via Instapundit), the shooter had issues with Christianity. In that case, he chose the wrong church as, according to my daughter who is a member of that church, Unitarians don't consider themselves Christians.

10:58 PM, July 27, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Dadvocate,

Glad your family and friends are okay. Thanks for the update link. I'm sure we'll hear more.

8:29 AM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey dadvocate, I am glad that everyone you know is OK. I was not thinking that some wild eyed Unitarian (are there any????) was shooting people, I was more worried about someone who was from a reactionary Christian background shooting up the Unitarians.

Trey

10:19 AM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Nope. Curiously, American Christians don't seem to do that sort of thing...

10:26 AM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

"I pray that this is not some spreading reactionary violence in the Christian communities."

Please! It is far more likely that violence will be increasingly directed AT Christians by people on the left. Quite fashionable nowadays.

10:44 AM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

This case smells that way.

11:27 AM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger blueinmo said...

Quasimodo said...

"I pray that this is not some spreading reactionary violence in the Christian communities."

Please! It is far more likely that violence will be increasingly directed AT Christians by people on the left. Quite fashionable nowadays.

YOU Quasimodo need to do your homework. The man was unemployed and a REPUBLICAN who was angry this Church had welcomed gays to come pray with them. He blames the liberals for all his problems.

So try blaming the right like Limpbaugh, Hannity and Beck for insighting crazy people to kill!

12:24 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

No, the case smells the other way.

According to the shooter the liberals are the evildoers.

Adkisson, an out-of-work mechanical engineer, left a four-page letter in his car in the church parking lot in which he railed against liberals and the fact that he had been unable to get a job since 2006. Owen said Adkisson was also angry that his food stamps were about to be reduced or eliminated.

"It appears what brought him to this horrible event was his lack of being able to obtain a job, frustration over that and his hatred for the liberal movement," Owen said.

The chief later added, "He did express that frustration that the liberal movement was getting more jobs and he was being kept out of the loop because of his age" and because he wasn't liberal.

1:00 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

While I agree that it is more likely that Christians will face rather than spread violence, it is not as if we are innocent of wrongdoing or immune to temptation. And from our perspective, things are getting worse.

This guy was not a Christian, he hated Christians. It is interesting that he was so disorganized as to pick a congregation of people who by and large do not identify themselves as Christian. So he got the liberal ideology right, but the spirituality wrong as he picked his victims.

Bottom line is he is nuts.

But I worry that folks in the middle, especially people used to doing things and making things, will get fed up with some of the big problems they see, like illegal immigration and gas prices, and these people who are used to doing things and taking care of themselves will start to take matters into their own hands and start hurting people.

That is my concern.

Trey

1:02 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Sloan said...

I can't understand the rationale behind attacking a Unitarian Church. They're about as open and liberal a religious organization as you can get. One comedian once described them as "the sort of people who would burn a big question mark on your lawn." ;-)

My prayers are with this congregation in Knoxville. Although I am not one myself, I come from a long line of Unitarians; it was sort of a family thing back around the turn of last century. My grandmother's parents helped establish and build the first Unitarian church in the county...possibly in the state (Michigan). I recall many pleasant conversations with my grandmother about the Bible and the life of Jesus. It was clear she was not a "believer," but she was, without question, one of the most "Christian" women I've ever known, God rest her soul.

I'm sorry, I've sort of strayed off-topic. I sure do miss her.

1:05 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

"I can't understand the rationale behind attacking a Unitarian Church. They're about as open and liberal a religious organization as you can get."

I think you got the reason with the second sentence, he was blaming gays and liberals and that church and congregation were very liberal and gay positive.

So they fit his delusional structure.

Trey

2:04 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Indeed. Whatever the color of his flag, he hated Christians. Leftcrazy and Rightcrazy have the same sort of stink: neither can tolerate tolerance, and neither can differentiate between tolerance and moral degeneration. At their extremes, they come around and meet at the dark side of the psyche, identical at last, and unreasoningly violent.

2:08 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Coastgreen1 said...

Peregrine John, this guy Adkisson didn't shoot these folks because they were Christians; he shot them because he knew that the Unitarian Church in Knoxville was a haven for left-liberal social activist types. And let's get real about his motives, the ones he listed in the four page letter the cops found in his truck. Adkisson wouldn't have been able to even conceive of something called "the liberal movement" if not for the 20 years of anti-liberal propaganda and hate speech spewed by right-wing talk jockies like Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck. These guys rail against "liberals" and the "vast liberal conspiracy" every day. Well, they finally got what they've been calling for: a hate crime to match their hate speech. If I were kin to the victims, I'd sue Limbaugh, Beck, and the Clear Channel radio network that underwrites their vitriol.

5:10 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Coastgreen, I know you liberal types are big on emotional, over the top responses, but just for fun, let us THINK this through.

Rush and Glenn oppose liberal ideas. They want to defeat the ideas in the marketplace of ideas. We are conservatives, we like competition! Even when we lose!

I have never heard Rush or Glen call for murder. Never. And I have listened to them a LOT.

Honestly, I don't believe that you for a moment think they are actually guilty. You are just engaging in dishonest agitprop. As such, you should be ashamed for fiddling while Rome burns. There are real problems to be solved, and you should be engaging in reasonable discussion rather than agitprop blather.

Or find someone on talk radio who can express the liberal agenda in a way that people want to listen. You know, compete!

Trey

6:31 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

We're told not to judge all Muslims when some kook commits honor killings.

Let's apply the same courtesy to conservatives, the vast majority of whom will condemn this.

I listen to Limbaugh and Hannity all the time, and they certainly don't endorse this type of evil.

Trust

6:34 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

I'm intrigued that Mr.Adkisson was able to go to a pawn shop and purchase a shotgun even though he had an order of restraint against him, according to news reports.

7:55 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger blueinmo said...

Excuse me!!!!!

Are you people so used to the hate speech that you don't even hear it any more?

Is attacking other people because of their skin color, economic status, religion, sex, disease, disability etc funny to you?

What happened to the America I grew up in, where it was a WE society. Where we were our brothers keeper?

I suggest it went out the window when Limpbaugh, Boortz, Hannity, Beck and Savage went on the radio to spread their hate, bigotry and vile talk about people they don't like.


On the September 9, 2005, edition of his radio show, Beck referred to survivors of Hurricane Katrina who remained in New Orleans as "scumbags." Also, after acknowledging that nobody "in their right mind is going to say this out loud," Beck attacked victims of the disaster and the families of victims of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, saying: "I didn't think I could hate victims faster than the 9-11 victims."

While discussing the rape and murder of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore during the August 2, 2006, edition of his radio show, O'Reilly appeared to suggest that the clothing she was wearing at the time helped incite her killer. O'Reilly discussed several factors that contributed to the "moronic" girl's rape and murder, including that she was drunk and wandering the streets of New York City alone late at night. But in addition to those factors, O'Reilly added: "She was 5-foot-2, 105 pounds, wearing a miniskirt and a halter top with a bare midriff. Now, again, there you go. So every predator in the world is gonna pick that up at 2 in the morning."

Michael Savage wants to put grenades up muslim babies butts and light it. (Idiot doesn't know grenades don't need a match)

And for Irony

rush limbaugh

"And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein, and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! And speaking of poison gas ...I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM."

Limbaugh twice used word "spade" during discussion of Obama This article has video.
Tuesday, January 15, 2008

Rush Limbaugh calls for or envisions a riot at the Democratic convention in Denver coming up in August. People can get hurt and MURDERED in a riot!

Limbaugh: "If Barack Obama were Caucasian, they would have taken this guy out on the basis of pure ignorance long ago"
Thursday, May 15, 2008

Limbaugh says he told journalist writing story on him: "[W]e're going to find out where your kids go to school"
Tuesday, October 16, 2007

I suggest people read Rory O'Connors book. There you will find the true vile nastiness of the conservative right wing radio talk show host..

Rory O'Connor Sees Nothing Funny In Talk Radio Hate Speech From Shock Jocks Such As Limbaugh

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/113

8:21 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

Blueinmo: Is this OK for homework?

Karen Massey, who lived two houses from Adkisson's home, told the Knoxville News Sentinel of a lengthy conversation she had with Adkisson a couple years ago after she told him her daughter had just graduated from Johnson Bible College. She said she ended up having to explain to him that she was a Christian.

"He almost turned angry," she told the newspaper. "He seemed to get angry at that. He said that everything in the Bible contradicts itself if you read it."

Massey said Adkisson talked frequently about his parents, who "made him go to church all his life. ... He acted like he was forced to do that."

The guy was a nut. There are nuts who lean conservative and nuts who lean left. The problem is they are nuts not their political leanings. Having said that, Christians will be persecuted by the left. It will start with thought crime legislation masked as "hate crime" and "tolerance legislation." It is already practiced the People's Republic of Canuckistan - soon to be proposed in an American legislature near you.

Are you in favor of using "the fairness doctrine" to silence a voice you do not want to hear?

By the way, have you ever listened to left wing radio? The ones we've had around here make Limbaugh sound like the Dali Lama or Gandhi.

8:34 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger blueinmo said...

Quasimodo you tried to say the shooter was a liberal and he was not he was a conservative republican who blamed liberals for all his social problems >.<

When in fact it is the GOP who have cut social programs, unemployment extensions, food stamps, welfare, housing,medicare and medicade all to fund the corporate whores war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

No use trying to backpeddle.

I suspect you can relate to this man's feelings that the liberals have kept you down when in fact it is the fascist conservative corporate served up media you listen to and should blame for your life.

Lets see Tim McVey and Terry Nichols, christians, conservatives and republicans. America and Oklahoma City will never forget them, nuf said. There are many others I could mention but you will not find 1 liberal who ever killed someone because they were a Christian but there are lots of conservative christians who killed christians and anyone else who got in the way of their hateful agenda.



Ha Haa the Fairness Doctrine didn't silence anyone but the democratic party, shows what you know.

The FD made radio give equal time to all sides of an issue, they actually had to keep records to show they were giving their listeners all sides.

Killing the FD was the fascist corporations wet dream. Having their way with you, brainwashing you to believe everyone was out to get you when in fact the corps are the ones that hate you and your middle class life.

Have you ever seen the scientific study on Liberal vs Conservative brains? They actually took mri's while asking questions and showing participants pictures of stuff. While liberals were appalled at horrible pictures of death, torture and destruction conservative minds seemed unaffected. Why is that? Maybe because conservatives listen to sickos like Limpbaugh, Hannity, Boortz and Beck and Savage.

And as for the people you family values conservatives elect, I dare you to go to this link. http://www.armchairsubversive.com

You won't find a site like that on liberals cuz you won't find enough to post on a like web site.

9:40 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

blueinmo --

"Have you ever seen the scientific study on Liberal vs Conservative brains?"

Obviously you're new here. We've pounded both the liberal and conservative pseudo-psych studies about 'the others' inferiorities. They're crap. Both sides.

10:21 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

BlueinMo, you live in a red state don't ya?

Figures.

Trey

10:48 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:48 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Coastgreen1 said...

Quasimodo, your reasoning is about as twisted as your namesake's spinal column. Let's see, a self-professed liberal hater shoots up what is probably the best-known liberal church in Knoxville, killing 2 wounding a seven more, and your response is "Christians will be persecuted by the left."? To me it looks sort of like the other way around: liberals were just killed by a bloodthirsty conservative. What could be more persecutory than that? And by the way, I listen to conservative talk radio all the time. As Sun Tzu said, "Study your enemy". And I can tell you that Rush and Beck and Savage actually do foment violence against liberals, minorities and gays a good bit, although such is usually more a case of unreasoned rhetorical excess than of explicitly directing their listeners to take up arms against "the liberal movement" that seems to have so threatened Mr. Adkisson. Worse, though, is the way in which rightwing talk radio helps create an environment in which such violence seems plausible, seems like just the next logical step in supposedly protecting their listeners' traditional Judeo-Christian values and way of life. The really brutal irony, of course, is that, as an earlier poster pointed out, the real threat to most value-oriented conservative Americans' way of life is not some specious liberal conspiracy. Rather, that threat is really posed by the rise of a fascist corporatism that recognizes only one "value", the bottom line, and is willing to feed 95 percent of the human race into the economic meatgrinder to protect its interests. Limbaugh and company do their real work by disguising the true nature of that meatgrinder, that fascist corporatism. The sad thing, Quasimodo, if that the people who have the most to lose are the most fanatical in their attachment to rightwing radio. It's sad. And one day, when the meatgrinder has bitten a little too close to home, and rightwing radio is blaming the liberals and gays and minorities, more and more of those poor deluded values conservatives, like yourself for instance, may choose to exercise their second amendment rights by righteously shooting up some bunch of "treehuggers" or "liberals" or "faggots" or some other demon du jour. It'll be kind of like what Hitler did with the Jews: scapegoating a recognizable minority to disguise the rise of a disastrous corporate militarism. Fascism, I'm afraid, is much more in the American grain than socialism. Look to it, citizens. Look to it.

11:33 PM, July 28, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

blueinmo,

no one here thinks these crimes are funny. what we are taking issue with is those who are trying to paint this is a symptom of conservatism, which it is not. and we'd say the same thing if it were painted as a symptom of liberalism, which would also be untrue.

8:08 AM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Coastgreen, two points:

1. Paragraphs, use em.

2. Conservative does not equal Christian. And conversely, Christian does not equal Conservative.

That is all.

Trey

9:32 AM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger blueinmo said...

WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED!!!

O'Reilly, Savage, Hannity on accused church shooter's reading list

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/OReilly_Savage_Hannity_on_accused_church_0728.html

"Adkisson targeted the church, Still wrote in the document obtained by WBIR-TV, Channel 10, 'because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of media outlets.'

"Inside the house, officers found 'Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder' by radio talk show host Michael Savage, 'Let Freedom Ring' by talk show host Sean Hannity, and 'The O'Reilly Factor,' by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly."

"Adkisson's ex-wife once belonged to the church but hadn't attended in years, said Ted Jones, the congregation's president. Police investigators described Adkisson as a 'stranger' to the congregation, and police spokesman Darrell DeBusk declined to comment on whether investigators think the ex-wife's link was a factor in the attack.

Right wing radio talk host do incite the listeners to strike back.

I see more attacks on liberals to come as the corporate masters of these hate talkers lose listeners as the country moves left of center and true lovers of America and Democracy TURN THEM OFF!

12:21 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

And Charlie Manson thought The Beatles White Album was telling him to murder Sharon Tate and others.

blueinmo - your as full as hate as those you accuse.

1:26 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger blueinmo said...

DADvocate said...

And Charlie Manson thought The Beatles White Album was telling him to murder Sharon Tate and others.

blueinmo - your as full as hate as those you accuse.

Sorry DaDvocate I calls them as I sees em.

Thats the problem with people like you the truth is a lie and the lie is the truth.

When you people are confronted with the truth you attack, trying to make what people like Hannity, Savage and Rush say is okay.

What they say is never okay, bigotry and hate is not a
FAMILY VALUE!

If it had been a liberal that did the shooting I would report the truth on that too.

Like you republicans always are bitching about TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what you do and say!

By the way I'm an Independent

3:42 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

I kept trying to write about selective outrage, but the comments of cool colors with hot heads kept cracking me up and I couldn't get through it.

Fortunately, a different Yankee did a better job of it than I was likely to anyway.

5:25 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

Okay, I tried to make nice.

Hannity, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly are not responsible for this, or even inciting it. This guy claimed to agree with conservative positions, so it is not surprising he read them, it does not make it their fault. There are plenty of violent people who agree with liberal positions and read liberal authors, and that would not make any crimes of theirs Alan Colmes' fault.

I don't think it is mean to say, in fact I think it is quite factually and proven as such by his own statements here, that blueinmo is not only hateful, but ignorant as well.

So tell me, blueinmo, what liberals do you read so I know who to blame for your ridiculousness?

6:55 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Sorry DaDvocate I calls them as I sees em.

Too bad you can't see reality but rather a world that is tinged by your own prejudices. You prove the truth of my comments and project you methods (When you people are confronted with the truth you attack,...) on to me.

Only a madman does what Mr. Adkisson did.

I don't know if you read my earlier comments, but I had a son-in-law and a grandson in that church at the moment of the shooting. A past minister of that church performed my wedding ceremony.

If I were an irrational person, such as yourself, I'd be seething with rage. But, rather I can use my accumulated experiences and knowledge and realize that Mr. Adkisson was irrational at the time of his actions. (A gross understatement) This is not to excuse his actions.

To argue against free speech and other basic human rights, as you have done is also irrational. Hannity, Savage, and Limbaugh have never endorsed violence a la liberal talk show hostess Rhandi Rhodes. If you want to see hate, watch Keith Olberman and his worst people list.

I don't care if you're liberal, independent or Amish. You're so far off base you probably can't even see left field from where you are.

Living in a free world has certain risks. I'm willing to accept those risks. Some are not.

8:14 PM, July 29, 2008  
Blogger Ishmael said...

DaDvocate,

Can you show me any instances where Randi RHODES advocated about ANYONE shooting, killing or rioting anywhere?

It must be terrible to all the Christian Fundies out there to realize that George Bush is the AntiChrist, as Pope John Paul II thought he was, and is setting up the very Mark of the Beast via RFID chips that they rail against. That would make all those preachers they listen to The False Prophets in the narrative.

So what does it say about Christian Conservative Republican principles when they endorse torture, murder, Red War and slaughter for a party who's only constituency is the very people who spin gold from the bodies of the slain. All so Jesus can come back and smite the wicked? Who do you think he's going to smite if he comes?

The really sad thing for me is that I can actually relate to his troubles. I've been unemployed for two years and have been a primary caregiver for my wife who had a series of strokes 18 months ago. I could only afford her COBRA coverage and it just ran out. At 54, I am competing in a job market with people half my age and have already taken a 50% cut in salary before I lost my job.

So I understand this guy's frustrations. As a liberal with a precision-guided weaponry background, I am probably Limbaugh's worst nightmare. If I were stupid enough to go postal, I'm sure I could do much greater damage than this poor sod did. However, there IS a difference.

While I listen to and have personally met Ms. Rhodes on a few occaisions, I have never heard her utter any threats or incitements to violence against anybody. But then, I have also walked the streets of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Karachi and Bandar Abbas among many others.

So I have a very real stake in the Rule of Law and want to see it applied equally across the economic and political spectrum. Therefore, I will allow the Law to deal with this guy in the possibly forlorn hope that it can serve as an example to the people in Washington on BOTH sides of the aisle that are violating their oaths by NOT enforcing the LAW.

4:04 AM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger Joe said...

QUOTE: "This guy claimed to agree with conservative positions, so it is not surprising he read them, it does not make it their fault."

-----------

Last time my dial raked across a Limbaugh broadcast he was advocating that his listeners start violent riots are the democratic convention.

Limbaugh and his ilk say that Liberals are a domestic enemy - so we are shocked when some credulous believer acts on this?

These guys routinely advocate violence against half of Americans as a way to solve political differences.

Look how REAL liberals responded: True to their values and true to American courage in standing up and bravely taking down this sad fallen American. Humanity in the face of horror is what separates normal Americans from the right wing mullahs on the radio and the terrorists who act out their fatwas.

4:36 AM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger Jo said...

"Look how REAL liberals responded: True to their values and true to American courage in standing up and bravely taking down this sad fallen American. Humanity in the face of horror is what separates normal Americans from the right wing mullahs on the radio and the terrorists who act out their fatwas."

My ubber-conservative, Christian mother said she didn't understand why the people of that church didn't take the gun away from the guy and shoot him with it after they tackled him. Being a UU myself, I explained that it probably wasn't even a thought in their head. We are non-violent people and we believe in the inherent worth and dignity of ALL people. I think that is the biggest difference among the "liberal movement" and the neo-conservatives.

My mom can't grasp the concept that they would not only have allowed the guy to survive but will most likely oppose the death penalty in his case.

While there are those on the left who may have turned the corner of the circle to almost being like the extreme right wing, I am more afraid of the right wing in this country than the extreme left wing. I have to say that I am surrounded on a daily basis by conservatives who make comments of violence against whole groups of people (including liberals because somehow the fact that I'm white means I'm a conservative to them) and then they laugh as if it's somehow funny. Even some of the most "normal" seeming and quiet of the conservatives I know will make these atrocious comments. I NEVER hear the same style of comments in my liberal church OR among liberal friends in my community (I live in a pocket of liberalism in my town).

Growing up I went to a private Christian school in a town of which I don't even know if a single liberal exists. The HATE that spewed from that school is mind boggling. But among the community as a whole it was seen as right and good. Even suggesting violence against ANYONE that thought differently. Even my mom, who is pro-choice (yes she goes against conservatives on this particular topic) would never admit it at church out of fear.

It's always mind-boggling to me when people don't understand why liberals and non-Christians are afraid of the right wing, Christians. ESPECIALLY here in the south! I've NEVER heard a single person EVER threaten groups of Christians, that weren't Christian themselves! I was a Methodist at a Free Will Baptist School and was regularly told I was going to hell, that I would one day be struck down by God and many other violent things. They regularly taught the students how other religions (including other Christian denominations) were wrong and should be converted or squashed. Even on many of the comments on the news stories people were suggesting that the victims deserved it because they aren't really Christians. Stories from friends in the area saying that their neighbors were flat-out SAYING to her that the victims deserved being shot at because they weren't Christian and somehow the guy didn't do a good enough job.

Having explained my POV, I'd like to also ask those that cite that the killer became angry at a neighbor over Christianity, could it have really been because she wasn't the "right" kind of Christian? I've seen WAY more anger over that than the other way around! Sure there are definitely those who are not Christian and who are angry at Christians, but that is generally a reaction to having been harassed for their beliefs and being excluded or repeatedly trying to convert them. I even have people keep trying to convert me even though I explain that I used to be Christian and know the religion well, thank you please move on!

10:33 AM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

I have been to a lot of churches in various parts of the country. These churches have been from a wide variety of denominations.

Never have I heard violence preached from a pulpit at any of these churches. I know that there are hate based churches like Wright's up in Chicago, but of the scores of churches I have attended, no violence or threats.

So it is with more than a little skepticism that I read the above statements that portray Christianity as a religion of violence.

The crusades were more than awhile ago. I don't believe what you folks are posting. And Jo, there is a different between saying what God might or might not do to you than threatening you personally. A BIG difference. Cowboy up dude, you don't believe in God, why worry about what people said to you uears ago about a God you don't believe in? Find a pair man.

Trey

1:30 PM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger Jo said...

First, typically when you see the name Jo without an "e" at the end it indicates that it is in fact a woman, as is the case here.

Second, I'm relaying why those outside of Christianity may seem to have fear of Christians that Christians may see as hate rather than what it truly is.

Third, I typically find that when someone tells you that you are going to hell it is because they HATE you! They may be putting their violent thoughts out there as those of their God, but it is in fact their own thoughts and YES that is seen as violent by the person being told that someone else's God is going to "strike you down".

Fourth, at the school I grew up going to (and I'm kinda young so it wasn't THAT long ago) I've heard them praise the crusades and saying that they'll come again one day if the second coming doesn't happen first.

Lastly, Wright's church is not "hate based". I've heard WAY worse come out of Baptist preachers mouths (shoot worse comes out of televangelist mouths on a weekly basis) than that single clip of Wright. Imagine, ALL those years he preached and only a minute could be found and put out there as being hate speech. While that doesn't make what he said in this one instance right at all, it also doesn't make his church "hate based".

2:51 PM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

It's depressing to read some of this blame game.

I'm sure that the vast majority of conservatives and the vast majority of liberals and the vast majority of those in between are all saddened by this event and condemn it. It's so sad that they have to use it to condemn others who are equally as outrages just because of political disagreements.

7:03 PM, July 31, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

"Third, I typically find that when someone tells you that you are going to hell it is because they HATE you!"

So if I see you about to get run over by a train that you do not see and I warn you about it, I hate you?

You are weird Jo, e or not.

Trey

10:18 AM, August 01, 2008  
Blogger Jo said...

"So if I see you about to get run over by a train that you do not see and I warn you about it, I hate you?"

The difference is that a train is a real, physical threat to me. It is an immediate threat to which a person should be made aware of. Constantly telling someone they are going to hell because they are the "wrong kind of Christian" has to do with hatred. I'm not sure how the two compare at all?

The fact that you have labeled me "weird" helps with my point. Just because I see this differently you automatically put me into an outsider position and devalue my experiences.

1:22 PM, August 01, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

to jo: "It is an immediate threat to which a person should be made aware of. Constantly telling someone they are going to hell because they are the "wrong kind of Christian" has to do with hatred."


I've tried to stay out of this off topic conversation, but you're making an unfair indictment of many christians. Many christians do believe "the wrong kind of Christian", as you put it, are going to hell. They warn them because they dont' want them to.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with them. I am saying that there is no need to assign nefarious motives where non exist.

Frankly, I am less afraid of fundamentalists christians who believe I'm going to hell and want me to be saved from it, and more afraid of fundametalists Islamists who not only believe i'm going to hell but want send me there. (and I certainly did not say all Muslims are that way)

6:28 PM, August 01, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Jo, I do not say you are weird because we disagree, I have cordially disagreed with people on this blog for years.

I say you are weird cause your posts are weird. They are spurious, full of exaggeration, and I would wager outright lies.

I think you are some weird bigot who dropped in here from nowhere.
Trey

8:58 AM, August 02, 2008  
Blogger Ellen said...

Let's all remember what side the gun nuts are generally on...

4:24 PM, August 02, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

@Ellen said: Let's all remember what side the gun nuts are generally on.

You mean those on the left who blame the guns intead of the perpetrators, blame those who believe in the second amendment, and disarm innocent law abiding citizens so they can't defend themselves against they type of scum who would open fire on a church?

Come on people, this is getting REALLY old. If this were a Muslim, the left would be rallying to say not all Muslims are this way. Since it was someone who reads Hannity, the left is lining up to paint this evil person as the poster boy for all conservatives.

It's not only ridiculous, it's unfair.

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5:01 AM, April 15, 2009  
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11:29 PM, April 21, 2009  
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5:05 AM, June 08, 2009  
Blogger serket said...

The UU religion started out as Christian, but morphed into an odd progressive mixture of several belief systems.

Joe: Look how REAL liberals responded: True to their values and true to American courage in standing up and bravely taking down this sad fallen American.

In your rant, you made a really good point. Too bad traditional liberals are disappearing.

7:33 PM, September 28, 2009  

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