Wednesday, January 07, 2009

Score one for couples counseling

Blogger Stuart Schneiderman has a post entitled, "Does couples counseling work?" He mentions an article in Cosmo describing the advice given to split couple Madonna and Guy Ritchie:

Thanks to their counselor Madonna and Guy posted "a list of relationship guidelines" on the walls of their New York apartment. Of course, if you have children who can read or friends coming in and out, this is not a great idea.

Guy was instructed to "enrich his wife's spiritual and emotional well-being," and to study the Kabbalah with her. And both parties were told: "not to use sex as a stick to beat one another."

For my part I cannot even venture to guess whose stick was being used to beat on whom.

Be that as it may, the tenor of the advice tells me one thing: that Madonna was paying for it. I hate to attribute even unconscious venal motives to anyone, no less a professional, but the counselor's advice is clearly one-sided....

The counselor told Ritchie to serve his wife, to attend to her spiritual and emotional needs, and to worship with her at the same altar.

Perhaps that was just what he needed to see clearly what he had gotten involved in. Couples counseling helped Guy Ritchie to see the writing on the wall, and he decided to cut his losses. Score one for couples counseling.


Marriage therapy isn't always about staying together, sometimes it can help a lucky person like Guy realize that he is better off apart.

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62 Comments:

Blogger Mary said...


Marriage therapy isn't always about staying together, sometimes it can help a lucky person like Guy realize that he is better off apart.


Especially if there's a multi-million dollar payoff waiting for him at the end of the divorce, eh?

Me? I feel sorry for their biological son Rocco, and that little boy "David" recently adopted from Africa... I wonder if it's too late to return him to his father in Africa, who -- if I recall correctly -- didn't really seem to understand that in allowing his son for celebrity adoption, he was relinquishing all future contact with his on.

Probably in this 21st century though, "David" will someday be able to track down his father again, if the man is still living. Shame Madonna and Guy got involved in this poor kids' life after all, imo. Sometimes an intact family, and being raised around your own people, is worth so much more than money and a split family situation.

Good luck to the kids!

12:33 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

correction above: "with his on."

= "with his Son"

12:34 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger BobH said...

The article seems to say more about Cosmopolitan magazine than about couples therapy. Cosmo is, after all, written for women (and probably largely BY women). So it seems reasonable that they would write the article to make it seem natural and obvious that men should be making the changes, to benefit women. Readers who are being told that they should change their own behavior for the benefit of somebody they may no longer like very much, will probably be less likely to buy and/or read the magazine again.

12:43 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Elusive Wapiti said...

I agree that chances are that the counselor knows who was buttering his/her bread and acted accordingly.

But 'who pays' may not have made much difference. My impression is that relationship counselors are cut from some fairly therapeutic equalitarian irreligious cloth. Thus it does not shock me whatsoever that Ritchie would be clubbed into being dragged around by his short and curlies by his wife.

Mary wrote:

"Especially if there's a multi-million dollar payoff waiting for him at the end of the divorce, eh?"

Funny, I heard that Ritchie traded his claim to Madonna's $$ earned during the marriage for access to his kids. So maybe his motivation was love and not money after all. I'd say that compares favorably to the majority of more mercenary women (and some men) out there.

Also, wasn't Madonna the one to file?

So much for the theory of the big payday for Ritchie.

1:32 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

What the article doesn't tell us is that whether Madonna had instructions outlined for her by the counselor as well.

The Madonna/Guy Ritchie match always seemed like an odd one to me, I'm surprised the marriage lasted as long as it did. If the couple counseling was able to allow these 2 to see that they would be better off without each other, then I would say it was successful. I would assume that one of the goals of counseling would be to allow clients to make calm rational decisions.

1:45 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

"not to use sex as a stick to beat one another."

What about using a stick to beat each other during sex?

Marriage therapy isn't always about staying together, sometimes it can help a lucky person like Guy realize that he is better off apart.

This was very much the case with me. During counseling I realized just how crazy my ex is and that there was no future in staying together.

1:47 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

". . .the tenor of the advice tells me one thing: that Madonna was paying for it. I hate to attribute even unconscious venal motives to anyone, no less a professional, but the counselor's advice is clearly one-sided. . . "

When a woman gets tired of nagging her husband, of repeating her unreasonable complaints and "suggestions" for how he might "improve" himself, she hires a "counselor" to be her surrogate pain in the ass. Counselors know which side their bread is buttered on, even when the husband is the breadwinner. Thus, the advise is always one-sided, and always favors the wife. The only thing exceptional in this case is that Madonna probably used money that she, rather than her husband, had earned to pay for the professional nagging.

2:20 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger SteveinTX said...

Thus, the advise is always one-sided, and always favors the wife.

Couldn't agree more. All issues must be resolved by the man being more nurturing and supportive - allow her space for her self-actualization.(anything else would be controlling)

Oh, and if she goes off the deep end; he is to blame for enabling her.

SteveinTX

2:37 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

When a woman gets tired of nagging her husband, of repeating her unreasonable complaints and "suggestions" for how he might "improve" himself, she hires a "counselor" to be her surrogate pain in the ass.

Hits the nail on the head. I've never known a man who initiated marriage counseling.

2:56 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

Another relationship: perhaps

Marriage: never again.

3:46 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Quasimodo said...

The day that the woman who is party to this divorce is gone from the news and all other forms of media will be a happy day for humanity. I could not possibly care less about the relationship in question. I pity the poor children - certified members of Future Human Disasters of America.

3:59 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Wapity:

Your linked article is dated Nov 23. Here's one from 12/15 about Mr. Ritchie's $92 million dollar settlement. Not saying he doesn't deserve every penny; not commenting one way or another on that, in fact.

Just saying in my original comment, that with $92 million in parting gifts, Mr. Ritchie may be lucky in more ways than one in splitting with his wife.

4:39 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger piratenewstv said...

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If you want Free Speech in USA, then complain to KNS dictators about the censorship of the news reported by Pirate News TV, and demand reinstatement of blogging rights.

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Bankrupt KNS was paid a $20-million bribe, er, "Taxslave Investment Funds", by City of Knoxville Municipal Corporation, for propaganda services. How many other Knox buisnesses would like corporate welfare, especially during a Depression? This government paycheck makes KNS a government contractor, which must abide by the First Amendment to the US Constitution, as proven by every supreme court and US Congress. It's THE LAW!

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4:39 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Mary said...

Whoops, here's that link about why maybe we shouldn't be crying for Mr. Ritchie, but for his children left behind instead:

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/12/15/2008-12-15_madonna_forks_over_92_million_for_divorc.html

4:42 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Chris said...

On the theme of men changing to suit their partners, try this post from ask MeFi:

http://ask.metafilter.com/110984/Help-my-kill-my-sex-drive-and-save-my-relationship

7:00 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"Counselors know which side their bread is buttered on, even when the husband is the breadwinner. Thus, the advise is always one-sided, and always favors the wife."

Right.

You have obviously never been to a male marriage counselor. 8)

Trey

7:05 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

Mary,

I think what Madonna did, effectively, was to simply dump her British holdings (which she didn't want anymore) on Guy Ritchie. That's why it went so quick. She wanted to dump the house and other stuff, and it simultaneously got rid of the dork. It didn't even dent her financially.

And I agree with people who think that he didn't earn that, but on the other hand women have been pulling that since the dawn of time, so I guess men can also get unearned spoils once in a blue moon.

I'd certainly be in favor of a rule that you simply take your own marbles with you in a divorce. But I bet a whole lot of women would oppose that with their dying breath. Huh. Fancy that.

7:32 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Elusive Wapiti said...

Mary, thanks for the link. I was unawares.

Trey, You're right, I have never been to a male marriage counselor outside of a pastoral setting. Was my generalization inaccurate?

If male marriage counselors are anything like Dr Phil, then I'd rather burn in hades than submit to their 'counsel'.

7:38 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

I don't have much experience with male marriage counselors, but there may be a possible analogy with male / female judges (I do have some experience there).

What is odd is that a non-feminist FEMALE judge is probably better in a divorce, in general, for a man. An older male judge might be the worst judge a man can draw.

Men tend to be very chivalristic when forced to choose between a man and a woman (as in the case of a marital conflict).

I assume that TMink's sarcasm is intended to mean that male therapists are partial to men but ... I really doubt that's the case.

7:44 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

I already wrote about this in a different thread, but I guess it also applies here:

A (male) marital therapist could have really caused problems for my friend. His wife at the time, between crying fits, said that one of the basic reasons for conflict in the marriage was that ... he didn't fully trust her. *sob* She gave the example that a lot of the husband's stuff was in his own name, or otherwise protected in some way, and she felt so ... untrusted and dirty.

The marriage therapist bit like a big-mouth bass and told the husband that one of his tasks in the counseling would be to show more trust for his wife and to put his assets in joint name with her. At subsequent meetings, my friend simply said he had done it, or was working on it, but had no intention of doing so.

The wife then filed for divorce out of the clear blue sky, and it became evident in other ways that she had been lining up her ducks for an optimum divorce for quite a while - my buddy was already a very good earner at that point.

The only comment of the marriage therapist was that he was also extremely suprised at the turn of events.

My impression is that a normal marital therapy session (I've never been to one or even been married) consists of the reading of a long list of complaints and "suggestions for improvement" from the wife, with a weighing on the part of the man as to whether the wife is worth all this trouble or not. All while he (typically / statistically) is supporting her fat ass.

8:14 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

One more point (maybe a bit off-topic):

I've noticed that complaints of men in a divorce involve how MUCH she took from him. The man doesn't think alimony is fair, or the amount of assets transferred that HE earned.

Women, on the other hand, if you look at divorce message boards, complain about not getting ENOUGH of his stuff in a divorce.

There is some kind of tilt there that shouldn't exist if men and women are really supposed to be treated equally by the state. The line should be at zero.

8:22 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger highlander said...

In our 39 years of marriage, my wife and I have had our share of rough times. We have been to four different marriage counselors on four different occasions. Three were male and one was female.

The three male counselors were all pretty much on her side.

One in particular asked each of us what we hoped to achieve with the counseling. I went out on a limb, bared my soul, and listed three or four areas where I thought I could improve. My wife, however, when asked said that as far as she was concerned, she was ok and viewed the counseling simply as a means to change my behavior. Whereupon the counselor turned to me and said, "OK, let's go to work on you."

The female counselor was the only one who spent any time working to convince my wife that my concerns might have some validity.

Eventually, by dint of some very hard work on both of our parts, we were able to resolve our differences without the aid of a counselor.

Obviously I can't say that all male counselors are anti-husband, nor that all female counselors are husband-friendly, but it will be a cold day in hell before another male counselor sees my face in his office.

10:42 PM, January 07, 2009  
Blogger Marion said...

My impression is that a normal marital therapy session (I've never been to one or even been married) consists of the reading of a long list of complaints and "suggestions for improvement" from the wife, with a weighing on the part of the man as to whether the wife is worth all this trouble or not.

The couples I know who have had their marriages saved by therapy would tend to disagree with you, at least from what they've told me about the therapy. And by "saved" I meant "brought to a state that brings both participants happiness with a tolerable amount of the imperfections present in any human relationship."

Most people, left up to their own devices, are bad communicators. The ones who do realize the importance of communication often don't realize when they're speaking a different communication "language" than their partners. Some people have issues that go way, way beyond that, and obviously, if one member of a marriage is up to no good, all the counseling in the world won't fix things. But a heck of a lot of troubled marriages are troubled because each person in the marriage is interpreting the other person's actions in a very different light than the other person intends. A neutral third party can be of immense help with that. (Note that I specified a *neutral* third party.) If you think counseling is bunk, that's certainly your right, but I know at least a few people who could have avoided divorce court without being miserable had they at least made a stab at it.

Also, Cosmo is marketed to women. If this article were in GQ, I'd expect to see an article talking about what Madonna had to do for Guy Ritchie. YMMV.

12:16 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"Was my generalization inaccurate?"

Grossly. I was married to a woman who was bipolar. We went to four marital therapists. The only one who tried to "fix" me was a preacher who was great at preaching but thought that our problems could be fixed by my going to "Promise Keepers."

"If male marriage counselors are anything like Dr Phil, then I'd rather burn in hades than submit to their 'counsel'."

Dr. Phil does not like doing therapy. It shows. I have read that he has an uncanny gift of being able to read people, juries in particular. That is how he met Oprah, he saved her bacon when she was sued by the cattlemen.

He may not even have a license to practice psychology! He hired a PATIENT to work in his office. He was paid by the patient/employee's father. This was all unbeknown to the patient/employee. When she found out, she fired him. He may have lost his license.

One of the things I do with couples as a therapist is try to support them in being nice to each other again. Honestly, in MOST marital session, someone, usually the wife, tries to triangulate me and get me to gang up on the partner.

I do not do that. It is not therapy.

When I do not do that, the couple either adjust or fire me. HAving said all this, couples work is difficult for me because of the level of resentment in most couples by the time they get to the sessions. But with couples that want to improve a marriage, I am usually able to help.

Trey

8:13 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"I assume that TMink's sarcasm is intended to mean that male therapists are partial to men but ... I really doubt that's the case."

Well, after reading some post about how the therapist always rags on the man I thought about writing a long post defending couples counseling and how difficult it is blah blah blah. I even think I wrote two or three sentence.

Then, when I read it, it looked like whining.

So I deleted it and posted a joke.

You are correct. I doubt that male therapits favor the man.

I think it is more accurate that good therapists notice and deal with triangulation and bad ones get sucked into it.

Trey

8:16 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger flambeaux said...

"Whoops, here's that link about why maybe we shouldn't be crying for Mr. Ritchie, but for his children left behind instead:"

I read that Madonna decided to end it when she injured herself falling off her horse and Guy was not worshipful enough.

Mr. Blonde Ambition might be a world class tool for all I know, but between that story and all the Kaballah nonsense, I suspect he earned nearly every penny of that settlement.

9:15 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Ya know, some of the Kaballah nonsense is interesting to me! I watched a couple of shows about it this week, I think they were called The Bible Code or something.

While it is not an article of my faith, I do find it interesting.

Trey

10:01 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

TMink:

The typical counseling session goes exactly as described by me and highlander described it. Yours, which involved a wife who was already diagnosed with a mental illness when the process started, was atypical.

Secondly, it turns out that you are a marriage counselor yourself. So, you don't agree with a criticism of your own profession, huh? Big fuckig surprize. As I said, marriage counselors know which side their bread is buttered on.

Marion:

"Most people, left up to their own devices, are bad communicators. The ones who do realize the importance of communication often don't realize when they're speaking a different communication 'language' than their partners. . . a heck of a lot of troubled marriages are troubled because each person in the marriage is interpreting the other person's actions in a very different light than the other person intends."

Typical feminist/"womanist" mumbo jumbo. Most people speak the same damn "communication language" as their spouse. Here in the USA, we call it English. The trouble is not lack of "communication" (feminist code for a man refusing to listen to his nagging wife every free moment of the day), but women who never shut up, who never stop complaining, who never stop trying to "improve" their husbands, who are always seeking to "work" on their husbands' "problems." Wives think that they have carte blanche to rearrange every aspect of their husbands' physical appearance, personality, work life, leisure time, thoughts, fantasies, dreams, feelings, etc., etc. Husbands don't like this, they find it controlling and dictatorial. But, rather than be confrontational, and telling the wife to STFU, they tune them out. That's why women such as yourself see the "problem" as one of "communication," because your husband is not listening to you.

Maybe, the problem is too damn much "communication" on your part. Save yourself and your husband some dough and try this approach instead of counseling--when you feel like talking at your husband when he is otherwise engaged (eg wathcing TV, indulging in one of his hobbies, napping, etc.), think 3 times about what you are going to say, and question whether it is important enough to disturb him, whether it is positive or negative, and whether, if it involves something on your endless "honey do" list, if it is something you can't do yourself or really need doing at all. If you get the wrong answer to any of those questions, just STFU. Do this, and you will find that "communications" between the two of your will improve.

"Also, Cosmo is marketed to women. If this article were in GQ, I'd expect to see an article talking about what Madonna had to do for Guy Ritchie."

Nonsense, for two reasons. One, men don't a give a shit about celebrity gossip like women do, and two, I doubt the counselor made Madonna do anything for Ritchie.

Finally, as to male and female counselors. Both know which side their bread is buttered on, so both favor the wife almost all the time. The only difference is, in the rare case that a woman counselor favors the husband, the wife says she is coming on to him, and so a new counselor is in order, but when a male counselor favors the husband, the wife says he "doesn't understand women," so a new counselor is in order! Same result, different rationale.

10:55 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

"Communication is key" always sounds great in practice, but doesn't look quite as good in concrete cases.

Here's a (common) problem as an example, and I'd like to know how "communication" can solve it:

Man and wife both have jobs before marriage. They get married, and not long after that, the wife unilaterally decides that the man makes enough for both of them and she quits her job.

The man is a bit irritated, because whether he makes enough or not the entire burden of breadwinning responsibility has now been placed on his shoulders.

At first, he makes the mistake of trying to simply say this in a direct way to his wife. He finds out that he will be met with comparisons to other husbands who are manly enough to do their manly duty and support their wives (possibly with an indirect hint that if he doesn't do that, other men are available who will), he finds that her image of a marriage is one in which the man supports her and she is starting to lose respect for him because he is whining about this, and he slowly also finds that every attempt at direct communication with her simply gives her ammunition to use against him in some way.

So he finally figures out that she's not going to work, he has the stress and responsibility for both, and he accepts it. Sometimes it eats away at him, and he will do things like ask in an exasperated voice when he comes home, "what the hell did you do all day", but otherwise it's just one more friction among the frictions that inevitably arise in a marriage.

Now that is a common problem and a common source of friction. Do you really think "communication" is going to help here?

The only thing that is going to help in my mind is for the husband to make abundantly clear that she is going to do her part or he is going to leave (if it's that important to him, if not he will have to shut his mouth and take it).

11:54 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

By the way, I saw a cartoon with a husband and wife sitting on a couch.

The wife says: "Honey, can't you open up and express your feelings more - I need some ammunition against you."

11:54 AM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger Roci said...

I have come to believe that open communication is just another way to be cruel. It is sometimes best to just say, "things aren't working out" and leave. It is pointless to list your spouse's deficiencies in areas they cannot change.

1:09 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

Another point about "communication":

I think on the whole that men ARE fairly direct in what they say, not all men, but as a trend more than women. If individual men quit talking it's because they see a disadvantage to it. It's that simple.

And why do they eventually see a disadvantage to it? Because women on the whole, although certainly not all of them, have more of a tendency towards manipulation and less towards direct, honest statements.

I have been in relationships myself where I thought I was saying something as clearly and cleanly as I could, and it was misunderstood. Repeatedly. I finally got the drift that there was no logical answer to what I was saying - but she didn't want to acknowledge it because she would have to give something up - so she just played a game.

There are situations in which the honest, direct partner LOSES. Since I don't like games or manipulation or intentionally misleading situations, it took me a while to catch on that a lot of women (and probably men, but not as many) play that game. That's just the reality of life.

1:54 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Ruddyturnstone wrote: "The typical counseling session goes exactly as described by me and highlander described it. Yours, which involved a wife who was already diagnosed with a mental illness when the process started, was atypical."

Dude, I am a licensed clinical psychologist with 20 years experience. I will be in 8 therapy sessions today. I know how therapy sessions go. That is my job! 8)

I also have a little practical experience on the other side of the couch. While trying to make my marriage with my first wife work, before I was a shrink, we went to see 4 or 5 different therapists.

The first, a counselor, said that the problem was that my wife's dad was an alcoholic. He is and was not, but everyone that lady saw had problems because their father was alcoholic. We fired her.

The next person we saw was a counselor who said that he wanted to work with my wife alone because she had the issues to work on. Then with me out of the picture he said that I was the whole problem! The wife fired him.

Then there was a person out in Denver that we saw a few times. She had a M.A. I don't remember too much about the sessions except that I liked her and I recall that my eldest daughter first stood up by herself in one of those meetings! This therapist told my wife that she needed to pay attention to how angry and upset I was because I would eventually leave if things didn't change. The wife did not like hearing that (though it was propheticaly true) so she fired that one.

The next therapist was a Ph.D. wih excellent training. She worked with the wife for a couple of years and was always very respectful with me. I saw her at a football game recently, she asked about me and the former Ms. TMink. I told her we had divorced, and the therapist said "Sorry, I wish it had worked out for you two."

I could bore you with stories concerning my personal therapy to deal with my abuse, but those therapists were all great!

Well, just one story, it is germain. I went to see one woman for help with divorcing my then wife. I was feeling very conflicted and guilty and miserable about the situation. At the first appointment, my therapist comes in, a babe with a button on her purse that said "If you ever wondered what a radical feminist looks like, now you know."

"Oh shit" popped into my brain as I expected to get slammed for being a man for 50 minutes then never coming back to see her again.

On the contrary, she was very helpful and respectful. She asked hard questions, but she worked to help me make a compassionate decision about my marriage. She never ragged on my wife or me, and I was more dubious about her than any of the others.

So I hope I have established my bona fides to comment on this matter.

Bottom line, if the therapist is an idiot or an asshole or just not your cup of tea, fire them and find someone who can help. Sooner rather than later. That is what I tell my patients about me.

Trey

2:56 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"Both know which side their bread is buttered on."

I know where my bread gets it butter, from my working hard, telling people the truth, helping people get better, and my reputation for doing those things quickly.

I have a waiting list.

This means that I have no asses to kiss to keep working. Plenty of butter to go around so long as I act with integrity and effectiveness.

Trey

2:59 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

I think that "communication" is a codeword for "don't be such a jerk when you are mad and ask for what you want." Both of those ideas are good ones to follow.

Trey

3:01 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger Target said...

Bernie Madoff had a waiting list too.

And the parallels don't end there, appearance and substance are sometimes wide apart with therapists and others who deal with troubled people who may not be able to be discerning at the time they get services.

3:02 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"And the parallels don't end there, appearance and substance are sometimes wide apart with therapists and others who deal with troubled people who may not be able to be discerning at the time they get services."

Nah, the simile is false. Bernie's folks wanted to get rich, my folks want to feel better.

Oh, and I drive a 2005 PT Cruiser, I bet Bernie had a bit better ride!

If you are trying to make the point that people who see therapists are vulnerable, we concur. But Target, you sound like an intelligent person, you are not projecting your own thoughts and feelings about psychologists in general or those you have met onto me, whom you have not met, are you?

Trey

3:33 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

TMink:

You're just repeating yourself, and are totally unpersuasive.

Yes, in your case, it was possible for the counselors to take your side. As I said, that's because your wife was already diagnosed with a mental illness. That is atypical. Telling long, boring stories about your sessions with these counselors doesn't chnage that.

I already know that you are a counselor. Again, that only proves that you are not a neutral, unbiased commenter, but are protecting your bread and butter.

As for your waiting list, yes, there are lots of wives out there who want to waste their husband's hard earned money. The wives stand in line to pay you his money so that you can say tell their husbands that they don't "communicate" enough, or correctly.

6:09 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"As I said, that's because your wife was already diagnosed with a mental illness."

Dude, she was not diagnosed at that time. Speaking of unpersuasive, when you project your assumptions onto people you do not know you are seldom correct.

And I currently see one couple, most of the time I am taking money from little kids who were raped.

I prefer their hard earned money.

Here is a clue: projection: the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way.

Pushing your experience and issues onto people you never met is not where it is at!

Trey

6:54 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

Spare me your psycho babble, doc. And don't practice on people over the internet. The diagnosis is almost always wrong, and it's unethical to boot.

Marriage counselors are frauds. They almost always blame the men, because the women are the ones who hire them. And they have never "saved" a marriage. That's the almost unanimous consensus of most men, not just my purely personal opinion.

And, one more observation, Doctor Fraud,, your self-serving bullshit, your bragging, boasting, and blowing of your own horn, your unfunny jokes, and your undeservedly superior, smug attitude, are not "where it's at."

7:02 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Wow, Ruddy, thanks, I'll try to act more like you from now on.

Where do I send the check?

Is it difficult being so wise? Do you get lonely, I mean, knowing everything? Must be a small club.

Dr. Fraud

7:46 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Just a small, well, a tiny even correction, I am sure it was just a slip Ruddy.

Projection is not a diagnosis.

That is all.

Dr. Fraud

7:48 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

TMink:

I think you have to realize that there is a lot of hatred out in the world for marriage counselors / therapists in general because of the crap that some of them pull.

There are some occupations in the world that are more susceptible to frauds / charlatans / sleezy operators than others.

Financial services (e.g. securities salesmen), used auto sales, therapy and psychological services are among the shaky occupations. Many of the practitioners earn a good income by basically selling snake oil.

And the point about the woman using the husband's money for marital counseling, using the threat of a divorce as leverage for this arrangement, is probably spot on.

I'll tell you the solution: Men need to grow a pair, men need to realize what marriage really is, men need to learn not to put themselves in the trap of marriage because of their sex drive when they are young (or even older). Men put themselves in that situation.

8:35 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

Don't give a woman the club, and then you won't be complaining that she's hitting you over the head with it.

8:36 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

TMink or "Trey" or Dr. Fraud, or whatever your name is, why don't you give it a rest, "dude?" You're the one who comes off as the know it all, it's my job so whatever I say about it must be true, even if it's self serving, boasting, blowhart, braggart. Those of us not involved in your phony "profession" have every right to our opionions about it. TS if you don't like it. Just as, I'm sure, you don't confine your pontifications to this subject only, either.

Also, too TMI, Dr. Demento. Nobody here gives a shit about your personal life, or if you ran into one of your two or three dozen former "counselors" or "therapists" at a football game or anywhere else, or what she said to you there.

Oh, and by the way, describing someone else as "projecting" may not, technically, be a diagnosis. But, identifying a so-called defense mechanism that a person allegedly uses is part of the process of diagnosing that person. So, you have found a difference without a distinction, even within your own alleged "profession." Either way, you are practicing on line, which, to repeat, is usually inaccurate, and also unethical.

Have a nice day!

10:05 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

JG wrote: "you have to realize that there is a lot of hatred out in the world for marriage counselors / therapists in general because of the crap that some of them pull."

Hatred is perhaps a strong word, I do not think that a lot of people hate marriage counselors, but some certainly do, and many, maybe most, with good reason.

"There are some occupations in the world that are more susceptible to frauds / charlatans / sleezy operators than others."

And since Psychologists deal with hurt, vulnerable, and damaged people, it is one of the most susceptible. Clergy also have a lot to me responsible for. It is interesting though JG, 95% of the malpractice in my field is due to improper romantic and sexual relationships with patients. As bad as some of the people in the field are (my own daughter was abused by a psycologist, a woman) they do not get sued for malpractice outside sexual assault much. That is weird.

"Many of the practitioners earn a good income by basically selling snake oil."

Agreed.

"And the point about the woman using the husband's money for marital counseling, using the threat of a divorce as leverage for this arrangement, is probably spot on."

I have seen that personally, but had not thought about the finances of the situation. That is between the couple, and the man will be lucky to be freed from a shrew. But that is different from all marriage counselors being crooked. 8)

"I'll tell you the solution: Men need to grow a pair, men need to realize what marriage really is, men need to learn not to put themselves in the trap of marriage because of their sex drive when they are young (or even older). Men put themselves in that situation."

I agree with you a lot pal, but we part company when you distrust all marriages. Now I am not telling you to get married or anything, but I am stating that I know of and am personally in a happy marriage. They are possible.

But you have to choose your partner WISELY! And some prayer doesn't hurt!

Later pal.

Trey

10:53 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Ruddy, you are not the first person to say that I come off as a know it all. It is not intentional, but there it is.

"Those of us not involved in your phony "profession" have every right to our opionions about it."

We agree, why do I not get the right to an opinion?

"Nobody here gives a shit about your personal life, or if you ran into one of your two or three dozen former "counselors" or "therapists" at a football game or anywhere else, or what she said to you there"

Well, maybe nobody but you and me, but it sure is stirring up some emotions in you, huh? What has you so riled up man? Surely not some old blowhard like me that you never met!!

By the way, the Dr. Fraud and TMI comments were really quite funny and on target. That is why I used the Dr. Fraud, I love it! I think that the TMI is too contextual to be used, but it was quite clever and a great put down.

"Either way, you are practicing on line, which, to repeat, is usually inaccurate, and also unethical."

OK, you are pretty smart, you know that last volley was way over reaching! There are only so many psychiatric diagnoses available, and projection is not on the list. Besides, I usually require the wife to pay me with the husband's money before I diagnose someone. Right?

"Have a nice day!"

And you as well my angry friend, and you as well.

Trey

11:02 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

JG:

"And the point about the woman using the husband's money for marital counseling, using the threat of a divorce as leverage for this arrangement, is probably spot on."

Dr. Fraud:

"I have seen that personally, but had not thought about the finances of the situation."

LOL! You realize that the woman is the one demanding that your services be retained, but the "finances of the sitution" never occured to you? How does that work, exactly? If it were up to the husband, they wouldn't be there, so no fee for you. The wife hired you; she's the customer. She's the one you have to please, if you want them to come back. If you favor the husband, and the wife doesn't like it, she'll simply refuse to come to you again. But, if you favor the wife, while the husband won't like it, he has little say in the matter. He didn't want to see you in the first place. He saw you under duress. A little more dislike of you won't make any difference, as he is still under duress. But, none of this ever penetrated your oh so pure mind!

"That is between the couple. . ."

Right. And you have no responsiblity in this extortion? You don't feel the need to question where the money comes from, and why, as long as it keeps rolling in.

". . .and the man will be lucky to be freed from a shrew."

Yeah, he'll be real "lucky," when he gets hammered in family court.

"But that is different from all marriage counselors being crooked."

They're crooked because they favor the wives. They favor the wives because the wives hire (and can fire) them. And, despite what you say, they have "thought" about this, and, no, they are not exonerated merely by claiming that this is "between the couple" and that the guy can get "lucky" and get divorced.

"Ruddy, you are not the first person to say that I come off as a know it all. It is not intentional, but there it is."

And, what is your opinion of this, doctor? Are we all wrong, and you right?

". . .why do I not get the right to an opinion?"

Who said you didn't? All I said is that is was (1) self-serving, and (2) contrary to the nearly unanimous consensus of men. And, so it is.

The rest of your comment is just empty jousting, and not very well done as that, and, as such, not worth my responding to.

11:14 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"How does that work, exactly?"

See, as I am trying to help, I always pay attention to who is most upset about the marriage. It is usually the woman. This is taught in the first day of the graduate class on couples therapy.

But what you miss Ruddy, is that the whole world is not like your life. Some women make more than their husbands, some men complain that they cannot get their wives to come to therapy, some wives complain that they do not get enoug sex, it is a varied and interesting world if you take the time to see it.

"The wife hired you; she's the customer."

Nope, the marriage is my customer when I do that kind of rip off, I mean work. I tell the couple this the first day. Some of them don't come back.

I think more women have fired me than men, I am sure of that in the last three years. I talk to them about what they can do for their partner to make things better. They is plural. And I completely endorse that more women revert to middle school and want to triangulate the man. Those are the ones who fire me.

That is day two of stealing money from men, darn it, couples therapy.

"And you have no responsiblity in this extortion?"

You are correct, I have no responsibility for any extortion, but I do speed on occasion. I have a great wife, if she said go to therapy with me or I am leaving, I would go in a heartbeat. But then, I am pure as you say.

"Yeah, he'll be real "lucky," when he gets hammered in family court."

Why are divorces so expensive? Because they are worth it! Actually, my divorce was cheap, keeping my child was out of this world expensive. But she is worth it too.

Sorry, TMI, I know how it upsets you when I mention an actual event rather than gross generalizations.

"They're crooked because they favor the wives."

That is a tautology, and they are rarely true. I am sorry that you got dicked over, but not all the marital therapists favor the wives. That is why I mentioned personal experience Rudy, because it is actual data. "They all favor the wives" is silliness and is falsifiable with a single instance of a marital therapist who either favors the man or is neutral.

"And, what is your opinion of this, doctor? Are we all wrong, and you right"

Honestly, when I am writing on the web I come across that way to some people, more than a few. Far fewer people that know me personally say that, but a few do. I am not a conceited person. But when I know that I know something, I tend to state it, well with authority. I think that is what comes across as arrogant, it is the confidence that the facts support me. Now this only refers to times when I am not trying to be an ass, those are different.

Oh, come on, my empty jousting was fun! It confused you when I was honest about those good put downs! You are being less than truthful I think! Isn't it much more fun that I can be playful instead of all angry? I think it is!

To be serious for a second, I can wholeheartedly agree about the sad state of my profession. Helen and I have done so here many times. But I choose to not let over the top stuff go unanswered. I really only meant to tease you and rile you up a little, not totally insult you. Sorry if I went too far. But let's not stop now.

Dr. Sigmund Fraud

Trey

11:39 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

". .I always pay attention to who is most upset about the marriage. It is usually the woman."

Yes, as I said, you favor the wife.

"Some women make more than their husbands, some men complain that they cannot get their wives to come to therapy, blah, blah. . . ."

Yes, rules always have exceptions. But that doesn't invalidate the rules. Most wives earn less than their husbands, if anything at all. Most people seeking couples therapy are women, not men, and so forth. The existence of counterexamples does nothing to change the general rules, and people who insist on pointing them out over and over again are tiresome, and are just derailing the conversation.

me:

"The wife hired you; she's the customer."

you:

"Nope, the marriage is my customer. . ."

Not nope, yep. I'm not interested in your holier than thou theory, but in the economic practice and reality. She hired you; she's the customer. You can pretend that you never "thought" of this, but I don't believe you.

"I tell the couple this the first day."

And then you go on to favor the wife.

"I think more women have fired me than men. . ."

Of course, men can't fire you, as they didn't hire you.

"And I completely endorse that more women revert to middle school and want to triangulate the man."

And most counselors go along with this, as that is in their economic self interest.

"That is why I mentioned personal experience Rudy, because it is actual data. 'They all favor the wives'" is silliness and is falsifiable with a single instance of a marital therapist who either favors the man or is neutral."

OK, so the overwhelming majority favor the wives. Is that better? That's what almost all men think, not just me.

". . .let's not stop now."

Stop whenever you like. I have no power to keep you here.

The rest of your post is just more empty jousting, trivial answers given in response to real statements, patronizing BS, instances of you patting yourself on the back for no good reason, more TMI about your personal life, and other, assorted, worthless statements to which I feel no need to respond.

11:56 PM, January 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"OK, so the overwhelming majority favor the wives. Is that better? That's what almost all men think, not just me."

Much better! Now it is an accurate statement. Accurate thinking and discussion are crucial.

Now if you can just get past saying all these demeaning things about a person you never met, we can have an actual conversation!

What happened to you? How bad was the counseling? Something must have happened for you to get so upset about my disagreeing with you and saying that I don't do things the way you stated and that I know of other people who don't, and you went kind of ballistic.

Whatever happened, it must have sucked big time. That bites. I have been in that situation with my (then) wife and later with my child. Having someone who is supposed to at least "do no harm" betray and hurt you or people you love is a huge betrayal.

But I don't do that.

I mostly help kids. A lot of them were abused. It is a good job and I am proud of the work I do.

I am sorry about what happened to you, but I did not do it to you, and I don't do it to other people either.

Trey

10:13 AM, January 09, 2009  
Blogger ruddyturnstone said...

me:

". . .the overwhelming majority [of marriage counselors] favor the wives. Is that better?"

you:

"Much better! Now it is an accurate statement."

I'm glad to see that we are in agreement.

"Now. . . we can have an actual conversation."

Actually, now that we agree on the substance, I don't see the need to discuss anything else with you. My point, that marriage counselors favor the wives, has been conceded in the main. And you have the qualifying language which, apparently, is so important to you. I think most people would have thought that it was implicit anyway, and that anyone but a nitpicker would have just assumed that it was intended as part of the original statement. But you needed it spelled out, and now you have it.

"What happened to you?"

Sorry doc, unlike you, I have no intention of getting into my personal story.

". . .I don't do that. I. . ."

Again, I really don't care. I'm just not interested in you, what you do or don't do, professionally or personally.

I guess it seems odd to you, but I'm really only here to discuss things generally. To express my opinions and hear those of others. Not to swap life stories.

10:41 AM, January 09, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

I have a marriage counseling story, but I heard it 3rd hand so I can't confirm or deny what happened. My friend stopped by a few days ago, he's been divorced for 20 years but he started telling me about his experience marriage counseling when his marriage was starting to go south.

He and his wife found a competent male counselor. The counselor got to know the 2 of them and they started to work on the issues in the marriage. The counselor asked them what were the most important issues that needed to be addressed. My friend readily admitted that he had issues with drugs as well as some personal issues that were affecting the marriage negatively.

The counselor began addressing these issues but after a couple of sessions turned to the wife and asked her what issues that she felt needed to be addressed. She replied, "Oh, I don't have any issues, I'm here to better explain what is wrong with my husband."

10:57 AM, January 09, 2009  
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7:17 AM, June 15, 2009  

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