Monday, July 06, 2009

Daily News: Retired NFL QB Steve McNair killed in murder-suicide by 20-year-old woman:

Former NFL star quarterback Steve McNair was found dead with multiple gunshot wounds in a Nashville condominium Saturday - and authorities hinted he was murdered by a girlfriend who then turned the gun on herself.

Cops discovered McNair's bullet-riddled body slumped on a sofa inside his rented condo's blood-spattered living room, authorities said.


What will happen if the evidence finds that this woman killed the victim? Probably nothing. "Experts," politicians, and activists will continue to say we need to focus exclusively on domestic violence against women...and people will applaud. Does anyone see the irony here?

73 Comments:

Blogger JG said...

Let the excuses for her begin:

(From the article): "She is the sweetest girl, and she did not deserve this," Kazemi's ex-beau, Keith Norfleet, told the newspaper upon learning of her death. "He was making her believe they were going to be together, and everything would be perfect."

----------

Sickening.

6:43 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

" ... and not long ago, she showed up with a brand new Cadillac Escalade she said was a gift from her boyfriend."

-----

I would be justified too in murdering someone who I thought might cut off the flow of cash and material goods.

Well, or I would be justified if I were a woman I mean.

6:45 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

Given the behavior of rapists like Christian Peter and violent sociopaths like Ryan Tucker, I just can't feel sorry for football players when they become victims themselves.

You can find my unpopular view of the world at:

http://columbine101.blogspot.com/2009/01/columbine-101-lesson-one-real-world.html

7:57 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

God of Bacon:

Your view is probably unpopular because you are equating football players with rapists. Maybe that's true at an above-average rate (or not, that's not what I'm arguing or disputing here), but you run into a problem when there is a football player who is not a rapist.

That's getting close to what the word "bigot" means to me.

And that's also incredibly sloppy thinking. Kind of like: All blacks are criminals, so Thomas Sowell is a criminal who can be ignored.

8:03 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

Unlike black men who choose to commit crimes, football players belong to a wealthy, influential industry that protects them and makes light of their victims' suffering. When asked by a journalist about Ryan Tucker's decision to brutalize and maim college student Bryan Boyd, a man half his size, Dick Vermeil proudly responded, "He can sure finish a fight. That's a positive."

Most football players do not commit violent crimes, but the organization they belong to is very protective of those who do. Team owners could easily choose to fire criminals and fans could choose to boycott teams that harbor them. Neither group seems to care about the victims. Mentioning this fact is hardly a form of bigotry.

I have no sympathy for football players who become victims themselves.

8:51 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

This post would be a bit better if Helen would cite her source for the "experts", politicians and activists who claim to want to focus on domestic violence against women. They may be the same people who are the "authorities" that tell others to act passively when involved in a crime situation. I want to know who these people are.

8:53 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

"Most football players do not commit violent crimes, but the organization they belong to is very protective of those who do."

-----

I agree with that statement. Football players are also coddled to an incredible degree in colleges.

8:57 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger LissaKay said...

First of all, it has not yet been determined that Kazemi was actually the killer. As of this morning, NPD was stating that they had not made any definitive conclusions.

Secondly, McNair's praises are being sung from every corner. Even his infidelity is being glossed over in favor of testimony to what a great guy he was.

If it is true that Kazemi did kill McNair, her next action of killing herself falls outside the usual pattern of how maless and females react in the immediate aftermath of a horrific act - women usually run, then when caught make up their stories of abuse or other circumstances that might excuse or justify the murder. Men, on the other hand tend to opt for suicide, rather than face the reality of what they have done, or perhaps to exact punishment on themselves.

While possible, the scenario of murder-suicide with Kazemi being the shooter seems less likely, and at least merits an in-depth and thorough investigation of all possibilities.

8:58 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger JG said...

LissaKay:

Women run and then make up stories of abuse when caught because IT WORKS. And not just for Mary Winkler.

Men pretty much know that (for them) killing people is a big no-no and they ARE going to get the hammer put down on them.

9:00 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

"This post would be a bit better if Helen would cite her source for the "experts", politicians and activists who claim to want to focus on domestic violence against women."

They don't call it the Violence Against Men Act. And btw, you provide me with sources from states, politicians and legal statutes that specifically protect men against domestic violence and actually carry them out. Also, give me all the names of the men's centers in the US as well as battered men's shelters. I'll be waiting.....

9:16 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Forgetfulmuse said...

All I can think is what a sad mess. He was married - article doesn't say that they were separated so I'm assuming not - and while I'm by no means defending the girlfriend's actions (if she did indeed kill him), he's not a saint obviously. Who knows the whole story - it's easy to make a snap judgment, but we don't even know if she did kill him.

IF she did, we also don't know what led up to that - but her ex's comments implying that it was because he was leading her on are really barfworthy. I've been in this position with a married man myself as a young woman and as much as I might have hated him, I never thought of even punching him, never mind murdering him! There's no excuse for that. It's just sad on both ends really. I'm sure her family is as devastated as his.

9:26 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger I R A Darth Aggie said...

I'll be waiting.....

...a really long time...

9:27 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Dave Cornutt said...

Forgetfulmuse, that's an interesting point... but you do realize that the fact that we're discussing it also proves Helen's point. If the situation were reversed, we would not be having a discussion about the victim's culpability.

10:33 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Cham - about 10 years ago the official domestic violence online training manual for the state of Kentucky stated that for the purposes of the training all domestic violence was perpetrated by men. Unfortunately, I wasn't savvy enough to save that manual and it's no longer on the Net. The official policy has changed but I wonder what the de facto policy is.

The biases are overwhelmingly against men. There were two cases similar to the Mary Winkler and both the women got off light.

I heard the report of the multiple wounds to McNair and the single wound to the head of the woman on the radio on the way to work. Raises the murder-suicide possibility. Obviously, the woman will get much more sympathy than if it had been the other way around.

10:38 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Vicki said...

Its hard to objectively comment on a speculation to a "what if" situation. This is a strange blog Dr. Helen, its almost as you are trying to create friction. And I like your blog.

11:34 AM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

We don't know if she killed him yet and, even if this lady did kill him we will probably never know why.

12:03 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Vicki --

In a sense, she is. But, the friction is between those who jump to defend the woman regardless of the situation and those who would examine it with harsh pragmatism, those who damn near always turn and blame the man (even if shot in the back as he slept) and damn near always shield the woman (even if she wielded the gun).

That type of friction is not unwanted.

Cham --

Ladies don't kill.

12:05 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger fred said...

She was sweet and loved;' he was nice and loved. Shit happens. Why suggest an irony when the police have not stated who might have killed whom ? Even tabloids are not doing that

12:06 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Olig:

I don't care what people have done or are accused of doing, everyone gets the title lady and gentleman from me.

12:08 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

fred - not sure if you know. McNair was shot 4 times, twice in the head and twice in the torso. She was shot once in the side of the head. No way he killed himself. She could have done the murder-suicide easily. Nothing for sure yet but it looks like her.

12:14 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger EKatz said...

I think it's too premature to guess what experts will say. Maybe if they do confirm that the girlfriend committed the murder and then killed herself, they'll say she was mentally imbalanced and possessive. From the facts that are coming out so far, there doesn't seem to be domestic abuse involved; it may very well be that his girlfriend wanted him to leave his wife, he wouldn't, and so she acted on the possessive rage of "if I can't have you no one can" and killed herself afterwards.

Another sad part to this murder... apparently McNair's wife didn't know about his affair until now (I saw this in a different Daily News article). This will need to be confirmed - police have been talking to her - but if it's true, how horrible to learn about both your husband's murder and his infidelity on the same day.

12:26 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger J. Bowen said...

This post would be a bit better if Helen would cite her source for the "experts", politicians and activists who claim to want to focus on domestic violence against women.

Batterd Women and the State: The Struggle for the Future of Domestic Violence Policy

I had trouble wading through all of the crap in this paper, but I did manage. If the author weren't serious it would be funny.

From the abstract:

However, a different and dangerous strain of criticism has recently made its way into the popular culture, espoused by men's rights advocates, conservative feminists, and others who have resisted changes in the law that treat domestic violence seriously. These critics argue that women are as violent as men in intimate relationships, so that the focus of attention on female victims is misplaced.

12:29 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger fivewheels said...

For what it's worth, in the police press conference they said the gun was found underneath the body of the woman, and there was no sign of forced entry. So while they're not discounting any possibilities ... it's not really too early to make a sound guess, as opposed to a firm conclusion.

1:25 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

DADvocate,

Men are bigger, stronger, and expected to be far more violent in our culture. Are you seriously trying to convince me that women are the source of domestic violence?

1:51 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Larry J said...

Are you seriously trying to convince me that women are the source of domestic violence?

In some cases, yes.

2:02 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

He will be blamed for her death and we will have to have new programs to prevent what ever it was that he did to annoy her so.

2:10 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

GOB - I wouldn't waste my energy trying to convince you. Just stating the facts.

My son happens to be a football player, plus an honor student, Boy Scout and musician plus an all round great kid. But, it won't bother you if he's murdered because of some other football player. Your opinions are unpopular because they are disgusting. Did you get beat up by a jock in high school or something?

2:15 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger J. Bowen said...

Men are bigger, stronger, and expected to be far more violent in our culture. Are you seriously trying to convince me that women are the source of domestic violence?

References examining assaults by women on their spouses or male partners: an annotated bibliography

Now, hardcore status-quo supporters will tell you that many of the references contained in this list are out-of-date, and they are correct. The methodology of the original Conflict Tactics Scale, which is what many of these studies used to come up with these results, was found to have been bad, and so "they" came up with a new one, which is known as CTS2. Well, guess what? Even with CTS2 they're coming to the same conclusion, which is that women are as violent as men or more so.

That a man is bigger and stronger than a woman is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether either is more or less violent than the other. If a woman slaps a man and he punches her in the face in self-defense, she is the cause of the violence and deserves what she gets. If a man slaps a woman and she throws a ceramic dish at him, he gets what he deserves. If you use physical force of any kind (whether it be anything from slapping a person to hitting a person with a baseball bat in the face) against another person that is not in self-defense, you are assaulting that person. End of story. If you make excuses for women who slap guys just because they're smaller than the guys that they're slapping, you are promoting violence. End of story.

2:34 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

When I was in high school I could not have named a single member of the football team nor could I have picked them out of a crowd. I didn't feel particularly threatened by them either.

I'm training for my second marathon. My children have been involved with the local baseball and soccer leagues since grade school. I just dropped off my oldest son at a football camp in preparation for playing for the high school team.

As I stated earlier, most athletes, football players or otherwise do not commit crimes. My "disgusting", unpopular opinions are based on the fact that the small minority of athletes who choose to commit crimes are protected by the organizations they belong to and fawned over by vast numbers of shameless, ticket buying sycophants. This is especially true at the professional level where a single player can represent an investment of tens of millions of dollars for the team and an important source of personal fantasy for his dimwitted fans.

In my opinion, men who behave as Ryan Tucker and Christian Peter did should have spent the rest of their lives in prison.

3:01 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

GOB - thanks for clarifying your position. I won't argue with you about the professional athletes. Just look at the recent case of Donta Stallworth. Of course, it wasn't the league so much as the courts that denied justice in this case.

3:37 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

God Of Bacon --

"... and expected to be far more violent ..."

Think I located the source of your problem. Try facts instead of expectations. Clears a lot of things up, like that pesky violent women thing. Might even eliminate that broad-brush "He's a football player, screw him" attitude.

4:12 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

Oligonicella,

In American culture, males, especially young males are expected to be violent or at least willing to fight over whatever petty issue the resident jerk decides is important at the moment. This expectation diminishes quickly with age but the fact remains that a man violently abusing his spouse or girlfriend shocks no one while a woman violently abusing the man in her life is widely considered to be damned peculiar regardless of how common it really is.

Public judgements and opinions are based upon expectations and perceptions, not hard facts.

As far as my "broad brush" attitude about football players goes...he's a large, physically powerful public figure with an awful lot of money. Removing a violent woman from his life without becoming violent himself should have been child's play.

5:04 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Larry J said...

Removing a violent woman from his life without becoming violent himself should have been child's play.

Not when she was (apparently) able to shoot him twice in the chest and twice in the head. Four bullets tend to take the fight out of you.

A gun is a great equalizer, as in: "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal."

Women, too.

5:45 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Target said...

I think what some of the slower people here are not getting is that it is NOT a pure brute force fight between a man and a woman today.

I'll get into details if you want, but a woman has manipulation weapons at her disposal that can very effectively counter the fact that men are bigger and stronger (ON AVERAGE: I hear, for instance, that Steven Hawkings wife is beating him. What a nice woman - he can't fight back at all).

Many men were raised not to hit a woman. Many men may hit a woman, but they know that women have an entire SWAT team on remote control (that being a cell phone with 9-1-1). Many men want to be fair - and the women don't want to be. And on and on.

I've seen it myself. And chivalrous men will always make excuses for these women and always lay into the men - no matter what. That has to change. Men should frankly beat the living shit out of Chivalrous Men.

6:49 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

The most unusual aspect of all this is that she offed herself too. Examples of a woman killing, attacking a boyfriend are numerous although society minimizes it, often along the lines that GOB is.

Had she shot him and not herself many would be comforting the poor dear as we speak. She could claim whatever abuse she wanted and most would buy it.

8:23 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger LissaKay said...

That's what's bugging me, DADvocate. The scenario just doesn't fit. As I said above, women don't usually kill themselves after committing a murder like this. They run, and often make up stories about abuse.

Donald Sensing has a lot of Nagging Questions too.

8:37 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

There's always the possibility that she was delusional, suicidal, the adult victim of child abuse, or some other malady unrelated to his former career or personal behavior. This is after all, only a news story because he was a professional athlete. The murder/suicide of a convenience store clerk and his wife would not have made the news.

9:14 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

The comedian who did the voice overs for some of the Simpsons characters (Troy McClure, etc.) was killed by his wife who subsequently committed suicide. I've forgotten their names but I knew this scenario sounded familiar.

9:15 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

All this seems to be proving DrHelen's point that nothing will happen. If the gender's were switched the killer would be declared a murderous psycho and all this soul searching and looking for reasons would not be happening. But, the perpetrator being a woman, we must look for the reasons that drove this poor dear to kill.

10:38 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

"we must look for the reasons that drove this poor dear to kill."

And make very sure that no man ever does it again.

10:51 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger jimbino said...

Yeah,

What one of us men needs to do is develop a phone that can be programmed by the man to direct all 911 calls to his buddy.

On the other hand, men who marry creatures who can't play chess, do math or physics, cabinetmaking, haute coutoure, haute cuisine or even cook, should have telomeres attached midway in their double helices.

11:54 PM, July 06, 2009  
Blogger randian said...

Nagging question: was this an honor killing? The woman's name suggests to me that there's a better than even shot that she's Muslim. Islamic law forbids Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men, and this is generally held to forbid romantic contact with such men. She would be killed for sullying the family name, and he would be killed for daring to date a Muslim woman.

1:59 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger marklewin said...

Dr. Helen:

Don't despair. Our patriarchial judicial system is imperfect. It has been preached that God, and even Satan, mete out a perfect form of justice, irrespective of gender.

5:57 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

randian - she belonged to the Baha'i faith. Word is that her family immigrated to the U.S. from Iran, via Turkay, to avoid religious persecution. I know nothing about the Baha'i Faith.

9:16 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger randian said...

In that case, she may not have been killed by her family, but it still looks like a premeditated murder. One shot to each temple? That's cold. It could still be an honor-motivated killing. She's Iranian, and in honor-based societies women bring shame to their families by dating "outside" people, which shame can be erased by "suicide" (usually at the instigation of the family).

9:46 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

Some times a cigar is just a cigar.

10:03 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Dave Cornutt said...

LissaKay and randian: Most of the evidence points towards the murder-suicide story, but there is one dangling thread that I know of. The guy who co-owned the condo with McNair, and discovered the bodies, tells a tale that is a bit off. He has said that when he walked into the condo, at first he thought McNair and the girl were just asleep, and it was some time before he noticed something amiss and decided to investigate. But I've also heard the crime scene described as "blood-splattered", and given that there were at least five shots fired, the place must have smelled like powder smoke. So I'm having a hard time understanding how he could have failed to notice it right away.

10:28 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Dave - about 15 years ago a nephew of mine committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. He was, apparently, lying or sitting on his waterbed when he did it. No one was home at the time and he fell into the side of the bed wedged between the sideboard and mattress.

When his parents and sisters returned they began looking for him when he didn't turn up for supper. They thought he might be with a friend or out on the farm somewhere. A friend of his sister's sat in his bedroom, where is body lay, and worked on the computer for over an hour before she noticed the bed didn't look right and found his body.

Maybe the light was poor, maybe the guy went straight to another room in order not to disturb them. In many condos, houses, the living room is not the first room you step into or even have to go through.

11:09 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Soccer Dad said...

The latest is that she bought the gun two days before the killings. The police haven't released the results on the balistics and powder residue tests on her.

But if she bought the gun two days before she killed McNair and herself, I'm sure there will be speculation that she purchased the gun for self defense.

At first news reports were only reporting about the good Steve McNair, now news reports are looking at his cheating with more of a critical eye.

When he retired he stated that he wanted to be a good father to his sons. Unfortunately the good that he did in his life will now be overshadowed by the circumstances of his death.

11:20 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

The speculation I've read is that she bought the gun to commit pre-mediated murder.

11:34 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

"The speculation I've read is that she bought the gun to commit
pre-mediated murder."

Get real. Everybody knows that only men do that.

11:48 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Soccer Dad said...

So what was her motive?

News reports claim that he promised her he'd divorce his wife and marry her. Did she buy the gun to force the issue and use it when he said "no?"

11:53 AM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger dweeb said...

""Experts," politicians, and activists will continue to say we need to focus exclusively on domestic violence against women...and people will applaud. Does anyone see the irony here?"

Forensic psychologist, speaking about social policy issues, places scare quotes around 'experts'

Does anyone see the irony here?

12:51 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

There is also an ex boyfriend who argued with her about dating McNair. But the current information makes it look like she killed him then herself.

I really feel for his family, word has it his wife knew nothing of the affair. And he has four boys who lost a daddy.

I met Steve once at the grocery, I introduced my daughter, then 6 to him, and he was wonderful with her. He asked her name, her age, where she went to school, what she wanted to be when she grew up, it was touching. All this at Kroger.

RIP to both of them.

1:02 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

God Of Bacon --

"In American culture, males, especially young males are expected to be violent or at least willing to fight over whatever petty issue the resident jerk decides is important at the moment."

That describes teen girls too. Check YouTube for video.

"... while a woman violently abusing the man in her life is widely considered to be damned peculiar regardless of how common it really is."

Maybe in blue country, not so much in red country.

"Public judgements and opinions are based upon expectations and perceptions, not hard facts."

I was referring to your judgements and opinions.

"Removing a violent woman from his life without becoming violent himself should have been child's play."

How? Restraining order? That works so well.

1:27 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger randian said...

But if she bought the gun two days before she killed McNair and herself, I'm sure there will be speculation that she purchased the gun for self defense.

I'm sure that's the PC way to go, but the manner of McNair's death says otherwise.

1:27 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

We could always execute people who consistently demonstrate a personal desire to be feared.

3:14 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger Dave Cornutt said...

Dadvocate, thanks for the info, and I'm sorry to hear about your nephew. I saw the "blood-spattered" phrase in a news report, but it could have been a bit of hyperbole on the part of a reporter -- it does sound like one of those stock phrases they use to describe all violent crime scenes.

3:41 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Latest news from the Nashville coroner is that the case is being treated that she killed McNair, then herself. The coroner said it would take a lot of persuasion for him to rule otherwise.

Trey

7:41 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Latest news from the Nashville coroner is that the case is being treated that she killed McNair, then herself. The coroner said it would take a lot of persuasion for him to rule otherwise.

Trey

7:41 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Seems the only reasonable conclusion. In the words of Sherlock Holmes, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (And, yes, I know Holmes is a fictional character created by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I've read every book and story.)

9:58 PM, July 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

The most recent police report is that McNair was shot as he slept. Shades of Mary Winkler.

Trey

4:32 PM, July 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

The most recent update says that Kazemi moved to Nashville when she was 15. She moved with her 20 year old boyfriend.

So she was an untreated sexual abuse victim. In the arrest video, she says "I love you" to Steve, and he says OK. So she was a scorned untreated sexual abuse victim.

Trey

1:18 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:37 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

Neat tidy legal definitions and clinical pronouncements.

Which help nobody. Which convey nothing, particularly they convey no responsibility.

What nonsense.

Am I to understand that any underage girl who hs an underage boyfriend is ipso facto "abused"?

1:38 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"Am I to understand that any underage girl who hs an underage boyfriend is ipso facto "abused"?"

Larry, I do not know what you will understand, but a 15 year old is a child, they cannot legally drive, they cannot rent an apartment, they cannot sign contracts. That is because they are legally considered a minor and thus do not have the maturity to make those types of decisions.

A 20 year old can indeed drive, get an apartment, and sign contracts. That is because they are considered an adult in most situations. The imbalance of power in this type of relationship makes it abusive. The chld has little recourse or alternativ other than to stay in the relationship. It is also illegal, because the majority of the country acknowledges that such relationships are abusive and wrong.

So you disagree?

The responsibility issues in this sad case are simple: she killed him while he slept, her finger pulled the trigger, she was responsible for his death.

Noting how untreated sexual abuse messes people up is quite different from saying this was not her fault. I almost put that disclaimer in the original post, but I decided that people would read the post and not get confused.

My bad.

Would you support your 15 year old daughter moving to another city with her 20 year old boyfriend? Would your 15 year old daughter even have a 20 year old boyfriend?

Would you allow your 15 year old son to have a 20 year old girlfriend? It is not a gender issue, it is an abuse issue.

I look forward to your reasoned and considered opinion.

Trey

1:57 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

"Would you support your 15 year old daughter moving to another city with her 20 year old boyfriend? Would your 15 year old daughter even have a 20 year old boyfriend?"

The second question quoted is the key. (I can't imagine the first question ever arising[1].)

(And for the record, our youngest is in her 30's.)

The key is, my wife and I were responsible for their upbring and care.

I don't know how to explain that any better, so I'll just say it again.

My wife and I were responsible for their upbring, safety and care.

[1] Since becoming legally and traditionally independent they have each done things that my wife and I disapproved of and counseled against. But that is now their responsibility.

2:16 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Well, good on ya pal. My oldest is 14 and my triplets are 6, so I have a long way to go to get where you are.

But back in the day, would you allow your 15 year old child to date a 20 year old man or woman? How about move in with one in another city?

I would never allow that. I would fear for the safety of my children if they were dependent on a romantic partner. They would be too vulnerable. They would be too young. And a 20 year old would never, never be allowed to date my 15 year old. Never. I bet you would do the same.

Like you, I am responsible for the care and protection of my children. That involves keeping them away from creeps.

But in my job I see everyday the consequences of untreated sexual abuse. The McNair stuff saddens me, on many levels. I am sorry Steve is dead, I am heartbroken for his 4 boys, I am sad for his wife who reportedly knew nothing of this. I am sorry for the woman, though I am more angry regarding her murdering someone. I am disappointed in Steve for cheating on his wife, I am sad that he did it with an unstable person.

I live in Nashville, so this happened here. It is a waste and there are tragic elements to it.

But she is guilty, I do not mention her past to give her a pass, I am not that kind of psychologist. If you thought I was, I understand that. Too many people in my profession specifically and our culture in general use the abuse excuse for everything. They did that for Mary Winkler who killed her husband in cold blood. That sickens me. It is unjust and un-American.

So that is where I stand on those issues.

But I do want to hear about what you would do regarding letting one of your 15 year olds date a 20 year old.

Later.

Trey

2:47 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

"But I do want to hear about what you would do regarding letting one of
your 15 year olds date a 20 year old.
"


OK, I'll copy it for you. Tell me which words you have the most trouble with.

I knew you would have trouble with--that is why I repeated the key part.

Quote

"Would you support your 15 year old daughter moving to another city with her 20 year old boyfriend? Would your 15 year old daughter even have a 20 year old boyfriend?"

The second question quoted is the key. (I can't imagine the first question ever arising[1].)

(And for the record, our youngest is in her 30's.)

The key is, my wife and I were responsible for their upbring and care.

I don't know how to explain that any better, so I'll just say it again.

My wife and I were responsible for their upbring, safety and care.

Unquote

Go ahead and get the last word in--I'm out.

3:05 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Does the question scare you?

Trey

3:27 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Really, Larry, I would like to have a discussion with you. That means you ask a question, I answer it, then I ask a question, and you answer it.

I have treated you with respect, I have answered your question. Would you please return the favor and answer mine? I would like to have a discussion with you on this matter.

Thanks, I look forward to our discussion. I do not bite.

Trey

4:07 PM, July 09, 2009  
Blogger Larry Sheldon said...

Now mthe more interesting question has become:

Suppose this was my 16 (or 17) year old daughter.

QAny of the three of them might have been in this position.

http://tinyurl.com/leytu2

I'm really worried about what I might have done.

12:18 AM, July 10, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Good photo Larry! Can I take it from this that you disapprove of adults being in sexual relationships with minors and would protect your children from that? Good. We agree.

So what is you beef with what I said?

And thanks for responding, I appreciate it. Please keep going, I am interested in your opinion and views.

Trey

12:33 AM, July 10, 2009  

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