Wednesday, February 24, 2010

29 Comments:

Blogger Trust said...

Good.

I'm curious, Dr. H. Do you have an opinion on how false rape allegations should be handled?

I'm torn. The justice in me thinks false accusers should be prosecuted severely, since they have basically attempted to steal decades of a man's freedom and destroy him for life.

On the other hand, one fear I have is that if the punishment is severe, the false allegation becomes a "it's me or it's him" nightmare. In other words, if coming clean means going to jail, one may decide they'd rather him go than go herself.

Perhaps the best thing is a window where if someone comes clean, the get off easy, like with probation, community service, etc. And if it gets to trial and they are found to have lied, or worse a man is falsely incarcerated, then severe prison time is done.

I'm not saying let someone off, I'm saying to make it in the best interest of the false accuser to come clean early to avoid harsh penalties.

Ideally, harsh penalties would deter someone from even making a false accusation, but I think expecting someone to think that far ahead is wishful thinking.

I have no easy answers, but this case is a very positive development.

Misandry. (Makes me mad every time I type that and it is flagged as a misspelled word, maybe it's time someone organized a lawsuit.)

8:08 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger jimbino said...

Just think of all the guys wasting away in prison falsely accused of a rape in which there was no chance of finding exculpatory DNA evidence.

8:48 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

And think of all the people who are raped in prison every day. Most rapes occur in prison, and most are committed against men.

Never hear that though.

Trey

9:23 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger J. Bowen said...

Does anyone know if this guy had kids? If so, what are the chances of a repeat situation of the Clarence Brandley tragedy?

9:37 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger randian said...

Either way you levy punishment there are scenarios that disincent doing the right thing.

If the punishment up-front is severe but lax or non-existent after conviction, the false accuser is incented to take her lie all the way so she can avoid punishment.

If the punishment up-front is lax or non-existent but severe after conviction, the false accuser is incented to admit to her lie early, which is clearly better for the defendant, but if she persists in her lie the threat of severe punishment post-conviction guarantees she won't ever admit it.

In either case if she is found, by means other than her own admission, to have lied she should serve a very long jail sentence.

I suspect a lot of women who make false accusations rather like the positive attention they get for doing that, and admitting they're lying would make it all go away. There is probably some Munchausen's Syndrome mixed in there as well.

When you have girls as young as 15 making these kinds of lies I can't help but wonder how strong the "it's ok to abuse men" meme really is in women's culture, how early it's taught, and how women rationalize it in their minds. I get a strong sense of narcissism and entitlement. Men aren't really human like women are? Men don't really feel pain and fear? Men exist only to serve women, and are disposable when women deem necessary? Whatever it is, I have no idea how to fight it.

10:28 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

"When you have girls as young as 15 making these kinds of lies I can't help but wonder how strong the "it's ok to abuse men" meme really is in women's culture, how early it's taught, and how women rationalize it in their minds."

This reminds me of the Amirault case, where children thought nothing of making absurd claims of sexual abuse and Satan worshipping.
In the children's case, they lacked the maturity to understand what they were accusing people of, and so they were really just saying stuff out of their mouths and playing with dolls while some pyschologist asked them some questions, and they tune their answers to what they think the interrogator wants to hear.

The difference is that adult women are supposed to understand the seriousness of the charge, and not just say whatever comes into their head that make the situation good for them.

I think Tom Leykis has a point - SO many people are raised these days without a stable two-parent, two-gender influence that they don't have any real ability to relate to other people and simply operate as permanent defense mechanisms to maximize their pleasure in the face of a world that makes no real sense to them.

11:46 PM, February 24, 2010  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Topher --

Actually, there's evidence the children were coerced. Much like a dozen or so other cases during that time frame. It may have started with one sick little kid, but the real culprits were the police and social workers. Social workers - the bane of current society.

2:27 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger randian said...

The difference is that adult women are supposed to understand the seriousness of the charge, and not just say whatever comes into their head that make the situation good for them.

This isn't merely about escaping your situation. Do you believe that, if there were similar opportunities for acquiring a "get out of jail free" card by scapegoating women rather than men, that women would use it as often as they do to men? I don't.

5:55 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Cham said...

Tmink says:

And think of all the people who are raped in prison every day. Most rapes occur in prison, and most are committed against men.

That seems to be the common mantra but I have yet to see data confirming that. Locally we had a rape/murder committed recently. A man raped a 15 year old boy and then killed him. We know the boy was raped because the rapist/murderer admitted it and there was evidence. My question is: How many boys/men are raped outside of prison? If male on male rapes go mostly unreported then how many of them occur.

I don't know the answer but I think these are good questions. Either the problem is nonexistent or we have no idea we have one.

7:02 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger MikeT said...

On the other hand, one fear I have is that if the punishment is severe, the false allegation becomes a "it's me or it's him" nightmare. In other words, if coming clean means going to jail, one may decide they'd rather him go than go herself.

Make the rape victim submit to a polygraph in the absence of witnesses. If she does not come back positive on all questions, then charge her with filing a false police report. A normal woman who cries rape would be nailed hard since the bulk of the people who can trick a polygraph are to some degree sociopaths.

7:31 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger God Of Bacon said...

Her so called "girlfriends" need to serve two days for every one she serves.

9:39 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Larry J said...

I've read that prosecutors are hesitant about prosecuting false rape claims because they might discourage real rape claims. Real rape victims are hurt by women like this one because it casts suspicion on their claim. I tend to believe that rigorous prosecution of false claims would discourage them more than it would discourage legitimate claims. In US law, the burden of proof is supposed to be on the prosecution, not the defense. That doesn't seem to be the case with rape charges.

The lies this woman told cost a man four years of his life. Her punishment should've been to lose four years of her life. Instead, she'll likely be released in a year or less.

10:08 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Ken said...

False rape accusations are horrible for many reasons, including (but certainly not limited to) 1. making things more difficult for actual rape victims; 2. casting lingering suspicion and loss of reputation on the falsely accused (and, as we see, falsely imprisoning some); and 3. tying up law enforcement resources in a wild goose chase.

10:35 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Larry J said...

I agree, Ken, and you said it better than I did. It's because of these reasons that I believe false accusations should be prosecuted and punished severely.

11:27 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

I read this article, and what I found most astounding was the reason why this woman falsely accused this man of rape. It wasn't because of anything he said or did. It was because her girlfriends were berating her.

Think about that. Rather than tell her girlfriends to shut up, she decided to accuse a man of rape.

This reveals how totally out of control women are these days. They care more about what other women think, and apparently all women now think that all men should be used and abused, rather than what is right and true.

It's a sad state of affairs.

11:32 AM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Kevin M said...

@GawainsGhost:

Very interesting comment. I'm not quite convinced we should conclude that the takeaway from this is that "women are out of control." But your observation is quite prescient.

I am more inclined to think that women pay FAR too high a premium on self-image (body image, reputation, dress, social standing) than is healthy, and even if that is true, I frankly blame society and commerce for indulging this.

But your initial comment is dead-on-the-money: Rather than tell her "friends" to STFU, she screams rape. That is so utterly beneath contempt that I am stunned this stupid bitch didn't get 10 years!

12:40 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

Well, when you have women running around falsely accusing men of crimes, just to appease other women, there is only one conclusion to be drawn. Women are out of control.

Or, actually, they're in total control. Whichever way you look at it.

Prosecuting and imprisoning this woman won't mean much in the grand scheme of things. The real problem is far too deeply ingrained for this one incident to make any difference.

Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. So what happens when you give a woman absolute power in court? She abuses it, naturally. Because she can, without consequence.

This is a female problem. Men suffer for it, but that doesn't change the fact. The only ones who are ever going to do anything about this problem are women.

But they're not going to do anything about it, right? It gives them power, and they're not about to give that up.

Women are out of control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaHAvEEbQOE

1:11 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

Topher wrote: "This reminds me of the Amirault case, where children thought nothing of making absurd claims of sexual abuse and Satan worshipping."

It was not the kids, it was the so called investigators. The way the cases were handled was awful. They are now textbook examples of how to not conduct an interview.

Kids were selectively reinforced with candy for making allegations, they were asked questions repeatedly until they gave the interviewers (many of whom were untreated sexual abuse survivors) wanted, children who made the outrageous complaints were trotted around as being brave and good kids to further encourage the other kids to lie. The kids were not the problem, the officials were the problem.

The so called interviews were taped, and I wish I had the transcript where an adult talks to a 7 year old child about how beautiful she is, how he wished he could marry her, and horrid stuff like that. People's lives were ruined because the interviews were conducted by hysterical people whose own issues should have disqualified them from the job.

Trey

1:16 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger campy said...

What if we just treated rape like we do other crimes? Required evidence beyond the "victim's" word before prosecuting? I bet the false rape accusation problem would soon begin to fade away.

There used to be a saying: Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer. Maybe that's an idea worth reviving.

1:19 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

Cham, here is a link I found that seemed to have some decent research behind it.

http://www.insideprison.com/prison-rape.asp

In my field of dealing with sexual abuse survivors, it is generally considered among clinicians that as many boys are abused as are girls, but that they do not report it as frequently.

Also, men do not have a slew of organizations making up fake data to show how victimized we are. Thank God.

Trey

2:31 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Vader said...

There is something wrong when a man can be convicted for rape on the testimony of a single witness and in the absence of any physical evidence.

Penalties for giving false testimony are fine, but there are a significant number of people who will do it anyway. This would matter a lot less if prosecutors didn't face strong incentives to pursue weak cases and juries weren't stacked with idiots.

3:27 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

"There is something wrong when a man can be convicted for rape on the testimony of a single witness and in the absence of any physical evidence."

That was the horrifying fear of the Duke lacrosse hoax, as North Carolina law requires the judge to instruct the jury that a conviction can be delivered solely on the accuser's accusation - even, as was the case in Durham, when the accused has an airtight alibi.

3:31 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Cham said...

I read the link, Tmink. That article about prison rapes is about as expected. I am wondering if anyone in a hospital has collected any data regarding males that require services due to what looks like might be rape. Those numbers might be very interesting and worth studying. My gut tells me that male on male rape is far more frequent than its victims are willing to admit.

5:04 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Kevin M said...

@GawainsGhost:

On reflection and in light of your response, I have to concur: Women are totally out of control.

Rescind their right to vote; get them the hell out of the workplace and BAKE ME A F-'ING PIE!

Seriously. I agree.

It's time to cut out this nonsense and get the planet back on an even keel. Women need to be controlled and I am fed up with all this "equality" nonsense.

I'm moving to Thailand.

It's been fun...not.

5:27 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger TMink said...

Cham, I agree, but some personal info is very difficult to obtain. The varying sexual roles of the prisoners was heartbreaking to read though.

Trey

10:37 PM, February 25, 2010  
Blogger Sinner said...

This saddens me because the MOST the woman might serve is LESS than what the man already has served.

8:54 AM, February 26, 2010  
Blogger Helen said...

Sinner,

But at least it's a start. At least she was charged and it was acknowledged that she lied. I realize this is not true justice, but it is better than her getting no time at all. Baby steps and we will get there.

10:47 AM, February 26, 2010  
Blogger Danny said...

One of my cop friends tells me that most women in this university town who make allegations of rape are lying. he claims it is as high as 50% in his experience. Most times, college women have consensual sex with a guy, have a case of "buyer's remorse" the next day,and cry "I have been raped".
Same goes for gay guys.

2:40 PM, February 27, 2010  
Blogger Topher said...

Danny,

Thanks for the input. It's easy to figure why this is the case - when there are zero consequences for lying, people will lie. Feminists say women never lie about rape, but that statement is so easily disproved as to render those commentators rank liars.

They can't say it publicly (political fallout would be career-killing), but I would be interested to hear the real opinion of cops particularly in college towns as their resources are diverted to track down guys girls wish they hadn't slept with instead of actual criminals.

For example, the Durham cops in the Duke case knew Mangum was making things up, and told the Duke campus police that the case would "blow over." That was before the Fong took the case over.

9:59 AM, February 28, 2010  

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